The Star Wars thread 86 replies to this topic Started by WonderBuono , Jan 06 2016 03:38 AM ·

[WonderBuono]

Well I don't create topics often, but I figure there's enough Star Wars fans here that it could deserve its own thread; especially since there's way more to the franchise than just movies.
 
Feel free to discuss The Force Awakens here, but please use spoiler tags, at least until the Blu-ray/DVD is released, just in case.
(I should've created this weeks ago when it was still really new but oh well)
 
To start things off... what do you guys think of Rey?

Spoiler

Brace yourselves, this is gonna get a little ramble-y.

First time I saw the movie I was a bit irritated by her character because she seemed like a Mary Sue; no flaws and skilled at literally everything she did. Independent-woman-who-don't-need-no-man, amazing piloting of the Falcon which she had never flown in her life previously, oh and apparently this legendary lightsaber is "calling" to her (gee, wonder why Luke never had any such sort of experience?) The final straw was when she used a Jedi mind trick (which I always interpreted as being extremely difficult to do, thus why it "only works on the weak-minded", and rarely) completely out of the blue. How did she even know to do that, if to her the Jedi have always just been a legend? There was a part of me that was annoyed that we actually got a LEAD female character, and she's suffocatingly, unrealistically, perfect. And fans love her for it. (And then there's the few random people I've seen who seem to think this is the first strong female character in Star Wars? Okay, yeah, let's just pretend that Leia and Padmé never existed...)

Then in the week following, I spent some time discussing the movie with my family and reading up on some fan theories, and realized that there's several obvious possibilities I stupidly ignored. Of course the popular opinion is that Rey is Luke's daughter... which definitely is possible, and would continue the Skywalker family theme better than if Kylo Ren/Ben were the only relative. But it seems to obvious, too easy, and I don't want it to be true. Having the two grandchildren of Anakin Skywalker be the main characters of the trilogy just seems... so fanfiction-y. And there's soooo many people in the Star Wars universe, so many options for new characters, that it would seem odd to me if we acted like the Skywalkers-Solos are the only important people in the galaxy, and it reeks of unoriginality. (More on this at another time.)

In any case, I have decided on one thing for sure (or at least that I WANT to believe), that Rey had training at Luke's academy prior to her being left on Jakku, and that she had repressed the memory (or had it repressed for her? if Kylo can pull things out of peoples' minds, surely he can push things back). Upon watching the film a second time, I saw Rey in a different light; that she had probably been using the Force her whole life without even realizing it, and it gave her some skill in certain areas, like flying (similar to Anakin). And the flashback from the lightsaber wasn't some prophetic vision of the Force; it was her memories returning. From this perspective she didn't seem so bad, not at all.

I'm still torn now, because no matter what way you look at her -- as a Skywalker, Kenobi, former jedi trainee, or even just a total nobody -- she still lacks any sort of real character flaw. I just can't bring myself to love her as much as so many people seem to... but I think if they give her some kind of struggle in the upcoming film(s), that could change. I don't know WHAT to think of her because I don't really know anything about her... but that just makes me more excited to find out.

[Mizura]

Spoiler

I agree with you about Rey being like a Mary Sue. I sort of assumed she'd be either Luke's daughter or Han Solo and Leia's daughter, but the fact that neither of them seem to know her squashed that theory.

The memory suppression thing sort of makes sense, she was very eager to return to Jakku to continue to wait for someone who wasn't coming back. We also didn't find out much about her life on Jakku, she could have some sort of background in it we aren't expecting.

There was that scene when she finds Luke's old light saber locked in the trunk and has those visions. She definitely knows something now that we don't.

I'm hoping in the future films, she does get developed a bit more and we can see other sides of her.

[Al Kusanagi]

None of this damn Mary Sue stuff that's been going around about Rey. She's no more competent than Luke was in a New Hope. Remember when homeboy blew up the Death Star THE FIRST TIME HE PILOTED AN X-WING? No one calls him a Mary Sue.

 

It's a sci-fi fairy tale adventure with larger than life heroes. Of course they're going to be hyper competent. Hell, what about the First Order Stormtroopers that could actually hit targets? Unthinkable!!!

 

Leave mai waifu alone...

[WonderBuono]

None of this damn Mary Sue stuff that's been going around about Rey. She's no more competent than Luke was in a New Hope. Remember when homeboy blew up the Death Star THE FIRST TIME HE PILOTED AN X-WING? No one calls him a Mary Sue.
 
It's a sci-fi fairy tale adventure with larger than life heroes. Of course they're going to be hyper competent. Hell, what about the First Order Stormtroopers that could actually hit targets? Unthinkable!!!
 
Leave mai waifu alone...

 
Well I don't actually think she's a Mary Sue... just said she seemed kinda like one to begin with. As for Luke, sure he did some pretty amazing things (as did Anakin) but they made it clear that he had a lot to learn, and he had one big flaw: impatience. And he almost died because of that impatience in Empire Strikes Back, so...

[Ap2000]

Rich Evans from RedLetterMedia said it perfectly when he describe TFA as a competent movie that was just as he expected the movie to be, good.

There is a lot of nostalgia-wanking and eventhough it's rarely only for "lol nostalgia", It ends up being too much for my taste.

The jokes were all pretty good, except for those made around/with/about Kylo Ren.

 

Even if Rey is somewhat of a Mary Sue, everything she does is and can be actually explained.

Even her knowledge about the space ship they're using. She apparently has been sneaking into it at night, but I only read that and it didn't make the cut for the movie.

Spoiler

I think, in general, she's quite different from Luke's role in ANH.

About her Jedi powers, think back to Luke's training. He had only one week of training with Yoda and on the Millenium Falcon was basically just trying to deflect some lasers, nothing too special. Wasn't until the prequel trilogy that George came up with the "dozens of years as training and you need to start as a 'youngling'".

It's only the mind tricks that seemed too instant to me. How did she even know that was possible?

Her character flaw is a decent amount of arrogance.

 

The weak point of the movie was Kylo Ren, unfortunately.

Not necessarily because of who he is, but of how he seems to be a complete loser and CAN'T DO SHIT.

Spoiler

Getting shot by Chewie is ok and I get that it hinders him to fight properly, but he seemed to just barely hold up against a stormtrooper that has seen barely any fighting.

I get that he's having a harder time than expected with Rey since, bla bla Force and her obviously having had to fight before.

The worst part however is that he is used as a comedic relief at times. Those two stormtroopers walking away when he was angry or the comically scared dude reporting back to him.

He apparently slaughtered several Jedi students, how is he not feared in a more respected way?

 

And why is the resistence called "the resistence" when clearly the bad dudes are more like a resistence to the republic and rebels, the combined bigger and more popular power in the galaxy?

 

For the sequels-sequels I hope they improve on the setting and make everything fresher. They have a solid foundation with ok characters, but they really need to come up with a more original story (even if SW is more character- than plot-driven) and make the dark side actually looks strong again.

I think all-out war between the republic/rebel alliance and the first order is the best way to go as an overarching setting. We don't even know what is going on in the rest of the galaxy!

[JoshuaJSlone]

Spaceballs: The Spoilers

 

Spoiler

Sorry for being crude, but the phrase that keeps sticking in my mind is that for better and worse this movie was made by people with a Death Star-sized boner for Episodes IV-VI, but who felt they had to make everything bigger to be cooler. Everything seemed too familiar. I was expecting a return to these familiar looks and themes with the side movies like Rogue One, but not from a new trilogy. Lucas may have done some silly things with the prequels and doesn't get the most humanity of his actors, but I-III provided something very different from the original trilogy so I was disappointed to not see that being the case here. 30 years later and it's still the Rebellion vs the Empire, under slightly different names, down to just slightly different logos and ship designs. Another surprise Force user living in obscurity on a sand planet. Another scary helmeted voice-modified bad guy, though to be fair they let us in that helmet pretty quick. And another, even bigger Death Star? But this one can blow up more than one planet at once? With another design flaw that a stormtrooper janitor and a bunch of people who didn't know of its existence can figure out in a few minutes? Rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes.

It is dangerous to compare canons, but having read a lot of the Legends books over the last few years it was kind of disappointing to see the state of the returning characters. In the old expanded universe they seemed to have had to deal with a lot more shit and still came out happier and better balanced. Instead we get a Han Solo who seems to have regressed to an even more losery state than he was in at the beginning of Episode IV, aside from his immediate willingness to take on a Deathlier Star. Speaking of Han, I joke-theorized that the accelerated timetable for VIII and IX (compared to the 3 year gaps of old) was due to making sure Harrison Ford would make it through the whole thing, but I guess that isn't an issue. That Han-Chewie combo can't catch a break in either continuity.

And for my stupidest complaint... BB-8's sound effects were like droid indigestion.

It is harder to rant at length about good things, but: I enjoyed Finn and Poe. Both in that they seemed like fun characters, and were new character types (at least for major on-screen characters) in rebelling stormtrooper and non-Force-using rebel ace.

I'm not saying this is good or bad particularly, but it is really coming to my attention how in Star Wars nobody's accent seems very determined by things like where they came from or who they grew up with. Nobody else (that we saw) on Jakku seemed to sound like Rey, and thinking further back Anakin doesn't sound at all like either his mother or Obi-Wan.

[Ap2000]

non-Force-using rebel ace.

 

Luke's friend Wedge Antilles was considered one of the best pilots in the whole galaxy and wasn't a Force user. That archtype isn't new (just underused).

[JoshuaJSlone]

Yeah, but in the movies themselves he was little more than an extra with a name.

 

And that reminds me, Denis Lawson was offered a role in VII, but he turned it down because he thought it would bore him.

[Al Kusanagi]

Wedge still got is props in the new canon though. He's the only original trilogy main character in the novel Aftermath.

 

Also, I'm still super sad that Rogue One is a heist movie and not a Rogue Squadron movie.

 

Anyone been reading the new Marvel Star Wars comics? The current storyline Vader Down is badass. You actually get to see why he's the most feared man in the galaxy.

[WonderBuono]

Spaceballs: The Spoilers
 

Spoiler

Sorry for being crude, but the phrase that keeps sticking in my mind is that for better and worse this movie was made by people with a Death Star-sized boner for Episodes IV-VI, but who felt they had to make everything bigger to be cooler. Everything seemed too familiar. I was expecting a return to these familiar looks and themes with the side movies like Rogue One, but not from a new trilogy. Lucas may have done some silly things with the prequels and doesn't get the most humanity of his actors, but I-III provided something very different from the original trilogy so I was disappointed to not see that being the case here. 30 years later and it's still the Rebellion vs the Empire, under slightly different names, down to just slightly different logos and ship designs. Another surprise Force user living in obscurity on a sand planet. Another scary helmeted voice-modified bad guy, though to be fair they let us in that helmet pretty quick. And another, even bigger Death Star? But this one can blow up more than one planet at once? With another design flaw that a stormtrooper janitor and a bunch of people who didn't know of its existence can figure out in a few minutes? Rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes.

It is dangerous to compare canons, but having read a lot of the Legends books over the last few years it was kind of disappointing to see the state of the returning characters. In the old expanded universe they seemed to have had to deal with a lot more shit and still came out happier and better balanced. Instead we get a Han Solo who seems to have regressed to an even more losery state than he was in at the beginning of Episode IV, aside from his immediate willingness to take on a Deathlier Star. Speaking of Han, I joke-theorized that the accelerated timetable for VIII and IX (compared to the 3 year gaps of old) was due to making sure Harrison Ford would make it through the whole thing, but I guess that isn't an issue. That Han-Chewie combo can't catch a break in either continuity.

And for my stupidest complaint... BB-8's sound effects were like droid indigestion.

It is harder to rant at length about good things, but: I enjoyed Finn and Poe. Both in that they seemed like fun characters, and were new character types (at least for major on-screen characters) in rebelling stormtrooper and non-Force-using rebel ace.

I'm not saying this is good or bad particularly, but it is really coming to my attention how in Star Wars nobody's accent seems very determined by things like where they came from or who they grew up with. Nobody else (that we saw) on Jakku seemed to sound like Rey, and thinking further back Anakin doesn't sound at all like either his mother or Obi-Wan.

I'm just gonna quote this whole post because it's basically everything I've thought and/or ranted about on Facebook already (minus BB-8... lol I thought he was adorable). I love the movie because it's Star Wars and I will always love Star Wars, but it had potential to be SO MUCH MORE and they just... recycled everything. Except Finn. Gosh I love Finn.

Even the ships are the same; updated X-Wings and TIE fighters are cool and all, but 30 years later don't you think they should be flying something new?

[JoshuaJSlone]

My favorite new ships are these from a cereal box.

Wedge still got is props in the new canon though. He's the only original trilogy main character in the novel Aftermath.

I spent most of that book so worried for him. Last year I was finishing up most of the Legends stuff I wanted to check out before switching gears to the new canon, which mostly meant all the X-Wing books. So I was really hoping they didn't want to do something awful to him to really set things apart.
 

[Mizura]

I feel like this movie was more of a transition to the new arc. They still had old characters to introduce and kill off in the case of Han Solo. and show what they've done while introducing the new characters to develop. I think they were relying a lot on old stuff to familiarize fans of the original trilogy (or something).

[Al Kusanagi]

That's exactly what's going on. Originally there was going to be far less Han Solo, but they thought they needed to have more callbacks in it just to tie it firmly to the originals. Now that they've established the characters they can go in a new direction with Episode 8.

[WonderBuono]

That's exactly what's going on. Originally there was going to be far less Han Solo, but they thought they needed to have more callbacks in it just to tie it firmly to the originals. Now that they've established the characters they can go in a new direction with Episode 8.

 

That's what I'm hoping for. :)

 

---

 

So my dad bought this game a couple weeks ago: Risk: Star Wars Edition. It threw me off at first because it's almost nothing like regular Risk, but it's really fun once you get the hang of it. And the Black Series version has some really nice pieces. It took us about ten times playing the game before one of us (me!) finally won playing as the Empire; it's a bit tricky since you're on the defensive -- you have to defeat all the enemy ships. As the Rebels you basically just win by rolling a 6.

[JoshuaJSlone]

They still had old characters to introduce and kill off in the case of Han Solo.

In retrospect, I feel like I should have seen that coming. He clearly had the Obi Wan / Qui-Gon role from the first of the other trilogies.

[Mizura]

I saw it coming pretty fast. I had a feeling that he would be killed off sometime in one of the three movies but as soon as I saw the narrow bridge I knew it was then and there. There's no reason to have it that narrow unless you're going to through someone off of it.

[Madara]

Never heard of "Mary Sue" before reading the spoilers in this thread, so I had to look the term up.  What are some other famous examples of "Mary Sue" characters in film?

[Ap2000]

Never heard of "Mary Sue" before reading the spoilers in this thread, so I had to look the term up.  What are some other famous examples of "Mary Sue" characters in film?

 

You can find a lot of examples via Google, it is more commong to use the word when it comes to literature though. At least that's my impression.

The male version is called Gary/Marty Stu. Wesley from Star Trek is one of the more famous examples (at least if you've seen the series).

The Twilight shit is basically full of Sues and Stus. A lot of teen movies are, really.

James Bond, not so much the recent ones, was a prime example of a Gary Stu.

Nancy Drew is probably one of the first characters that was called a Mary Sue and it's even interchangeable for some people.

[showraniy]

I just want to pop into this thread really quickly to say that I have no opinion on Rey as of yet because she could still morph into a more realistic, flawed character (and I didn't mind her Mary Sue-esque scenes too much besides the mind powers), but Finn is absolutely the star of The Force Awakens.

Fantastic character, and definitely my current favorite.

[Ap2000]

I just want to pop into this thread really quickly to say that I have no opinion on Rey as of yet because she could still morph into a more realistic, flawed character (and I didn't mind her Mary Sue-esque scenes too much besides the mind powers), but Finn is absolutely the star of The Force Awakens.

Fantastic character, and definitely my current favorite.

 

I need to tell you how wrong you are! Han was the star!

Most of the movie was about him. lol

[JoshuaJSlone]

When the end credits came up I wasn't surprised to see Harrison Ford as the #1 billed actor, but Mark Hamill at #2 was pretty funny.

[Al Kusanagi]

[Ap2000]

That looks like tumblr shit.

[showraniy]

 

I just want to pop into this thread really quickly to say that I have no opinion on Rey as of yet because she could still morph into a more realistic, flawed character (and I didn't mind her Mary Sue-esque scenes too much besides the mind powers), but Finn is absolutely the star of The Force Awakens.

Fantastic character, and definitely my current favorite.

 

I need to tell you how wrong you are! Han was the star!

Most of the movie was about him. lol

 

 

Pshaw! Finn was way better than Han to me, but Carrie Fisher takes the cake as my most-eyeroll-worthy Star Wars person--her acting, that is, and not the character she portrayed. Though I'll admit she got a lot better between the original movies and now.

 

Spoilery-ness for any who haven't seen it yet:

I so wish it was her on that bridge instead of Han.

[Ap2000]

I so wish it was her on that bridge instead of Han.

But nobody would have cared. lol

I think she's just as ok as she was back in the day.

[Ap2000]

George Lucas seems to think TFA is too retro, but he's interested in the next movies:
http://www.theguardi...e-force-awakens
http://www.cinemable...kens-98887.html

[JoshuaJSlone]

I was about to bring that up. The "white slavers" thing made the headlines, but looking closer some of his problems with it were ones brought up here.

 

This is one of the few places I could make this comparison, but I feel like Star Wars without Lucas leading it is kind of like Hello! Project without Tsunku leading it. Not necessarily bad, but lacking that unifying vision and force.

[Al Kusanagi]

Hell no! Lucas has spent his whole career actively trying to ruin Star Wars. The originals turned out well despite of him, since there were far more talented people reining him in. That's why the prequels were so bad, since he was surrounded by yes men. He gets credit for creating the seed of the world, but most of the good ideas came from others.

[Ap2000]

Yeah, Lucas is a delusional person and he can't write good dialogue if his life depended on it.

[Star]

Can I just say,

I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth.

Although, I will say I like the prequels the most. Partly because I just love Padme, but also because Revenge of the Sith was my first Star Wars movie and also the first movie I saw at the Drive In as it cane out the year I moved back to my current home. I was 6 and mostly confused the whole time, sleeping through some bits, but its still what got me into Star Wars.