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Can someone prove to me Kpop doesn't suck? That sounds mean, but I'm totally serious. 80 replies to this topic Started by The☆AEUGNewtype , Sep 14 2010 01:17 AM · 

#1 The☆AEUGNewtype

The☆AEUGNewtype
  • ♥ まいぷる ♥

Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:17 AM

As the thread title says, I haven't found anything from the Kpop market in the last 5 years or so even remotely interesting, and most stuff I see people talking about is all the same 10 artists or so that kind all sound the same. I think of the period between about 2000-2005 as the "Golden Age" of Kpop, just like we have a golden age for MM and H!P, etc. It seems to me that all the really good and unique artists just ended up moving on to other things, dropping off the Earth completely, or just turning into a ballad machine, and the most popular segment of the industry is just populated by over-hyped, super made-up, image-based groups and artists who don't have much originality at all. This could be a discussion of its own, and I'm very up for that, if anyone wants to respond, but first I'm going to give a run-down of the Kpop I absolutely adore. A lot of these artists most people probably haven't even heard of and most of them probably aren't still around, but if you have a point of reference, I'm asking you to read and reply.

In no particular order:

Ares - They always had a raw rock energy that I had rarely heard before, especially from Asian bands, and they mixed their really heavy and fast rock song with techno in a way I had never heard before, and I love both of their albums to death.
BoA (early) - Her early Korean music had such a different sound from some of the stuff the Japanese producers started writing for her. May have been because of her age at the time, etc., but her music was just very pure pop music that had a danceability but still had a really high performance quality and writing quality.
Cool - One of the most fantastic and talented combinations of 2 male singers and a female singer. Their songs ranged from a combination of reggae, soft rock, hip-hop, and a number of other things, and always sounded great.
Cheon Sang Ji Hee - A group of 4 girls that had exceptional voices as well as including one of my favorite solo artists, Dana. They had acapella songs and ballads so gorgeous it blew my mind, as well as some more slow-ish dance songs.
Finkl - One of the original popular Korean girl groups, they just had some pretty consistent good songwriting and all of them had a ton of charisma, and they're actually still pretty good, but are nothing like they used to be, music-wise.
Jewelry (early) - Their early (pre-Japan) stuff ranged from really cute, H!P type stuff to more hard-rock sounding, to ballads, always sounded pretty unique and kept the quality throughout.
Kim Jong Seo - One of my favorite male singing voices of all time. It reminds me of a more somber and high-pitched, Asian Paul McCartney and his music ranges from smooth jazz/soft rock type stuff to some more fast paced rock music, and it all just sounds amazing with his voice on top of it.
Morning - A girl group that all played their own instruments, and they played piano, guitar, and the one girl had a violin. Their music was a really unique combination of music that featured all 3 of those instruments really prominently, like nothing I've heard before.
Mina (early) - Her early stuff was a really cool mixture of techno and just plain good-sounding pop, kinda like Lee Jung Hyun's stuff at times, but not quite as techno.
Novasonic - One of the first major Korean rock bands, they just had an awesome mix of fast hip-hop, really unique heavy metal and techno all thrown together. They just rock, plain and simple.
SES - Probably the best girl group from Korea, and 2 of the members went on to be favorite solo artists of mine. Their music seemed to be the thing that most girl groups after them tried to emulate, they set a standard for Korean girl pop. It wasn't really so much cutesy pop, it was a little more sophisticated, but still not just all ballads.
Dana - Her second album especially showed some amazing vocal performances and one of the more solidly-written pop albums of that era in my mind.
Bada (early) - Her first album blew me away. She had really happy, upbeat dance songs, an epic ballad or two, and plenty of gorgeous sounding music to go around. Hard to pin why this is so good without thinking really hard.
Baek Jung Hyun (Lena Park) - Her 4th album is one of the most epic things ever. It has more strings arrangement than a Philharmonic Orchestra concert, and its not all ballads. Just plain amazing, and her voice soars with the best of them.
Park Ji Yoon - One of the most diverse artists that I've known from Korea. She re-invented herself and her sound on almost all of her albums, going from a young, innocent pop star, to a sex symbol, an album themed as a man, and a farewell album full of catchy pop tunes that were just plain fun. Beautiful voice and some of the most diverse songs of the day.
Seo Taiji - Probably one of my top 5 artists of all time, from anywhere in the world, Taiji was pretty close to deity status all the way from about 4th album to 7th album. His mix of heavy metal, hip-hop and boyband pop is just astounding and the themes that his albums carried are the stuff of legend. Every album is a story of its own with a completely different sound.
Shinvi - Super-cute almost H!P-ish music from a trio girl group, they just shined with cuteness all over and their music was right behind them. Their PVs were adorable and the music was really well-written.
Eugene (early) - Eugene's first album after SES broke up was a fantastic variety of dance songs and great vocal performances, with a little cute thrown in. Good variety in her early stuff before she turned into a ballad machine.
Lee Jung Hyun (early) - Her first 5 albums are the stuff of legend. Mixing hard-edge techno with traditional Korean music and super-catchy pop music. Not much else needs to be said, and some of you may know her from a stint she did in Japan for a while a few years ago.
Jang Nara (early) - Her first 3 albums are absolute gold. Super cute music mixed with a fantastic voice for ballads and a few novelty songs along the way too. Her 3rd album was more ballad-ish, but the theme was to be fully organic instruments, and it has some of the most beautiful arrangements I've ever heard with all real instruments.
Papaya - One of the really early girl groups that had a few fantastic hits and were another one of those pioneers for those to follow in the genre. Super catchy dance-pop.
Roora - They had a really silly and crazy style of music, often having really fast hip-hop and humorous lyrics and music, with multiple male voices and one really cute female singer. They played off each other really well on the vocal parts and it all just worked really well.
Space A - Another early pioneer for Korean dance pop that followed in the years after they left. Similar to Lee Jung Hyun, with a more hard-edge techno sound and crazy choreography, etc.
Coyote - Another great mix of male and female voices, they had fairly upbeat but mostly somber music using all of their voices extremely well.
UN - A group consisting of 2 male singers, and their music was extremely well-composed and had a lot of great arrangements, on top of both guys having amazing voices. Songs ranged from some down-tempo ballads to upbeat and happy dance songs with a tropical vibe.

What happened to these kinds of artists who had absolutely glorious and top-notch pop music instead of churning out image-driven dance songs and ballads? If you're familiar with these artists and are still a Kpop fan, are there any current artists that you're familiar with that you can compare some of the artists I listed? Has anyone else had the same experience as me? I'm expecting most people to be the opposite, but I thought I'd ask, since we now have a forum section for it, and this has bugged me for the last 5 years that I can't find amazing Korean music like I used to listen to all the time.

#2 fpd

fpd
  • Mr. Ghey Ghey

Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:28 AM

I think we all know you just hate everything. :weeeh:


There's plenty of good stuff that's miles better than most of the stuff H!P has ever put out save buono cause they were just amazing. I kinda doubt you've really given most of it a fair chance and have probably only heard singles for the most part. There's a lot of variety on albums. Pop music in general has become a lot more electronically inclined over the years which I love since I'm a fan of electronica, but I doubt you'd like most of the electronica I love, although if I remember correctly you did like stuff like DJ Sharpnel? so you may be able to understand why I like electronic music. I appreciate the science behind why a song sounds pleasing to the masses and that people put so much work into creating custom sounds.

Basically you need to supply what made those artists good in your mind or there's no hope of this not just being a troll topic lol.

#3 Ari

Ari
  • S/mileage

Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:48 AM

I'm expecting most people to be the opposite, but I thought I'd ask, since we now have a forum section for it, and this has bugged me for the last 5 years that I can't find amazing Korean music like I used to listen to all the time.


I think it's because producers/managers or whatever change and get older and don't produce the same type of music like they used to e.g. Tsunku :weeeh: . As for me from the artists that you listed, I love Seo Taiji and SES and they had songs from either before I was born or like a toddler. But anyways I think it's all a matter of opinion about the type of music that you like, and I find that music changes from era to era and with each music change, depending on the person they tend to like the music and think it's really good, or in your case people dislike compared to the music and artists they liked before.

All in all it's just matter of perspective because the K-Pop now might suck to you, but other people love it.

#4 neshcom

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  • back dat ass up to the cloud

Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:48 AM

(post bringing up that different cultures and different generations produce different ranges of music and that people have their own personal preferences)

Personally, I enjoy a little bit of Super Junior and some of Los Loboshinki's stuff. I also like Gee and FIRE. I don't know a whole lot though, so...

#5 Al Kusanagi

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:51 AM

I'm with him. It's all the same sounding Avex-like pseudo R&B bullshit.

Oooh. Diss!

Show me some cute Kolean girls that can actually ROCK!

#6 The☆AEUGNewtype

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:05 AM

Based on fpd's suggestion, I'm considering writing up why most of those artists were good. I thought about it originally anyway, but didn't really know if it would be neccesary, if someone already had a frame of reference to these old artists.

#7 fpd

fpd
  • Mr. Ghey Ghey

Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:18 AM

Based on fpd's suggestion, I'm considering writing up why most of those artists were good. I thought about it originally anyway, but didn't really know if it would be neccesary, if someone already had a frame of reference to these old artists.

Well, it's already been pointed out that music is subjective, so while I do have the frame of reference of knowing many of the artists you said and enjoying their music, I can't make a suggestion of new artists since I find them pretty similar in many ways and obviously they aren't anything alike to you.

#8 Pucchi mo

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  • As seen on KSBL-5906

Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:40 AM

I'm with him. It's all the same sounding Avex-like pseudo R&B bullshit.
Oooh. Diss!
Show me some cute Kolean girls that can actually ROCK!

Yes, this 100%.
However, I've lately become addicted to the Avex-like pseudo R&B bullshit.
I can't explain why it happened, but I find it interesting that most of my current addictions are groups that JpopYuna covered...

Back to Al's comment... there does seem to be a lack of rock in popular Korean music.

#9 eri

eri
  • aka eri, the Alpha and the Omega

Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:56 AM

Funny. Most fans would say mid90s was the golden era of Kpop (DJ Doc, Seo Tae Ji, even HOT) and that late 90s Kpop (yes, including FinkL) was the start of the decline.

But yes, music is subjective. The end.

#10 The☆AEUGNewtype

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:58 AM

Its only the beginning. That's what discussion is for, which you sure don't seem very open to lately.

Anyway, 90's Kpop was just kinda emulating a lot of crappy 90's American pop and a lot of it wasn't very interesting.

#11 eri

eri
  • aka eri, the Alpha and the Omega

Posted 14 September 2010 - 04:32 AM

Have you even been on the board in the last, like, year? Also, having a discussion isn't the same thing as coming on once in a blue moon just to bitch and complain about how everything sucks and "prove me wrong" blah blah whatever, moving on.

Anyway, 90's Kpop was just kinda emulating a lot of crappy 90's American pop and a lot of it wasn't very interesting.


Speaking of the 90s, I LOVED this song.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

And this one:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
But never admitted it because liking HOT was like being a Johnny's fan. No self respecting female over the age of 14 should admit that.

#12 The☆AEUGNewtype

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 05:25 AM

Hahaha, how delightfully irrelevant. I have been around, a lot, by the way, I just don't comment on every thread that comes along unless it interests me or I have something to say on the subject, which hasn't been a lot lately.

#13 hoshi

hoshi
  • S/mileage

Posted 14 September 2010 - 09:33 AM

I first got into Kpop around 1999 and so I'm familiar with and liked many of the artists you listed. I was actually surprised to see Morning and Shinvi on your list, as I often felt like I was one of the only people who liked those two groups.

Around 2003 or so I fell out of Kpop a bit. If I recall, around that time, there was a big influx of R&B influenced artists. I like R&B, but a lot of the songs coming out around that time sounded really similar and didn't really do anything for me. Either that, or I was picking the wrong artists to listen to then. Anyway, it wasn't until a few years ago that I started paying attention again.

I assume you've listened to the popular groups out right now and haven't found anyone you liked, so instead I'll recommend a few artists that aren't well known or often talked about.

Vanilla Acoustic - A trio of two female vocalists and one male guitarist. Their music is mostly laid-back acoustic songs. Examples: Lies in a Dream, Goodmorning Lady. They also cover other artist's songs. You can hear their cover of "Stranger by the Day" by Shades Apart on youtube or hear "How Deep is Your Love" or "Lucky" on http://www.vanillamusic.co.kr/.

Clazziquai Project - They've been around a while, so you might know them. They're a three member group with one male vocalist, one female, vocalist, and DJ Clazzi in charge of composing and mixing. Their music style ranges a bit but overall their sound is electronic. I love Alex and Horan's voices; they're both very smooth and easy on the ears. Examples: After Love, Love Mode, Lover Boy, Prayers.

Epik High - Hip-hop group that's also been around a while. They're part of the The Movement crew (along with Drunken Tiger, T, Leessang, and others), but some of their songs experiment with other styles aside from hip-hop. Examples: Fan, Map the Soul (Worldwide ver.), One (feat. Jisun from Loveholic), Umbrella (feat. Younha)

Cocoon Bells - Actually a project band that released their first mini album in January of this year. The vocalist is former soloist Haru, who debuted in 2003 with her one (and sadly only) album. Naru.

What I find interesting when contrasting Kpop groups from ten years ago to groups now is that the current groups area actually the stronger live performers. It wasn't until GrlFrnd's lipsynching scandal that live performances became mandatory on Music Core only. Gradually, the other music programs started to enforce live performaces, too. It was such a rare thing for groups to perform live that it was actually a promotion point for Shinvi when they debuted. As much as I loved SES or Baby VOX, I don't think the weaker members of those groups would be able to stand up live vocally when compared to the average girl group member now.

#14 strawberryjam

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  • 士多啤梨 bunny ? ♡ (・x・)

Posted 14 September 2010 - 09:34 AM

What happened to these kinds of artists who had absolutely glorious and top-notch pop music instead of churning out image-driven dance songs and ballads? If you're familiar with these artists and are still a Kpop fan, are there any current artists that you're familiar with that you can compare some of the artists I listed? Has anyone else had the same experience as me? I'm expecting most people to be the opposite, but I thought I'd ask, since we now have a forum section for it, and this has bugged me for the last 5 years that I can't find amazing Korean music like I used to listen to all the time.

Yeah... I'm in the same boat as you and I actually know a handful of the artists you mentioned. :weeeh: I liked Kpop when it was more campy, ie. HOT's Candy that eri linked. :lol:

Nowadays, Kpop is just soooo super produced and too barbie doll like. Maybe I am crazy for liking clumsy idols with no talent. It's too perfect when the girls have received years of training and are way awesome. And the music now, while some of it is good, it just doesn't appeal to me the same. It just sounds like Western pop to me. I might as well go listen to whoever's popular in the West now. (Don't hate me for this comment) :hahaha:

I do, however, like Jessica from SNSD because I want to be hot like that when I decide to dye my hair blonde. :puppyeyes:

The closest rocky songs I know (it's like listening to soft rock :ssh:):
Loveholic - Loveholic
The The - Delight (But this song is like Cranberries wannabe more)

edit: Listening to a lot of Hoshi's recommendations. Vanilla Acoustic is already miles ahead more likeable than most of what I heard from Kpop recently. Thanks hoshi!

#15 DarkRidley

DarkRidley
  • H!P Egg

Posted 14 September 2010 - 09:59 AM

Nowadays, Kpop is just soooo super produced and too barbie doll like. Maybe I am crazy for liking clumsy idols with no talent. It's too perfect when the girls have received years of training and are way awesome. And the music now, while some of it is good, it just doesn't appeal to me the same. It just sounds like Western pop to me. I might as well go listen to whoever's popular in the West now. (Don't hate me for this comment) :puppyeyes:

I have the same problem with K-pop these days. They've really hopped on the bandwagon with the whole dance-pop/hip-hop trend that's so popular in the West, and there's this overriding obsession with making the idols look perfect to the point where it's just uninteresting to me. I'll sometimes quite like the stray song, but it's always been a fleeting interest. Modern K-pop certainly has more international appeal, though, I can't deny that.

Also, is it just me, or is the K-pop industry extremely centralised? It seems like you just have these monolithic corporations controlling every aspect of the Korean music industry. I mean, it feels like there's barely any mainstream genres of music beyond the aforementioned dance-pop/hip-hop. Anything else seems to be difficult to find or obscure.

#16 ///

///
  • ¯\(°_o)/¯

Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:41 AM

You gotta be kiddin' me. Those mid-90s Kpop groups were talentless bullshit. They can't sing for shit, all they're good for is looking pretty. Sorry. Whether you prefer the songwriting from that period is your own business (it's cookie cutter fluff, but you are free to enjoy that, I know I do). But in the long run, they were what turned me off on kpop in the first place, and cemented my idea that they didn't care about talent at all. BoA certainly helped that impression. :puppyeyes:

A lot of the "monoliths" in kpop are REALLY young companies, especially looking at YG Entertainment and even JYP (as much as I loathe him, his groups, and his music). In that sense, I'm willing to cut them quite a lot of slack.

As far as Kpop nowadays, I kinda hate the recent girl group "format" where they add a rapper and the songs are extremely brainworm-y. Talking about groups like 2NE1, f(x), T-ara etc. To me SNSD is more or less the exception when it comes to their music, which I actually like. I have grown into the male groups more than anything, who have a surprisingly high quality output of dark tech-pop. Stuff like SuJu's Sorry Sorry and SHINee's Lucifer. The thing I like about Kpop these days is more the variety and entertainment shows, and stuff like Kim Taewoo's radio covers, than the actual new music. This is more than Jpop, where I just outright hate everything about it right now. SM Entertainment is a bit like that though, and while they have the best musical output for me, I'm more critical of their business practices (which include choke contracts and working their acts very hard).

If you're looking for quality acts, I think your best bet is to watch Music Travel Lalala, which is a showcase for the talent currently floating around the Kpop scene. A lot of slightly senior people also show up, and I mean that in the best way possible. The session musicians are pretty good too. I recommend episode 20090624 with SNSD and Super Junior (suju-clip, snsd-clip), 20090722 with Clazziquai Project episode (clip), and episode 20100623 with a huge cast of performers including the extremely talented 16 year old IU (clip).

And just to prove that cutesy kpop is still being made (which I like, obviously): IU - Marshmallow

#17 The☆AEUGNewtype

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:16 PM

You gotta be kiddin' me. Those mid-90s Kpop groups were talentless bullshit. They can't sing for shit, all they're good for is looking pretty. Sorry. Whether you prefer the songwriting from that period is your own business (it's cookie cutter fluff, but you are free to enjoy that, I know I do). But in the long run, they were what turned me off on kpop in the first place, and cemented my idea that they didn't care about talent at all. BoA certainly helped that impression. :puppyeyes:

A lot of the "monoliths" in kpop are REALLY young companies, especially looking at YG Entertainment and even JYP (as much as I loathe him, his groups, and his music). In that sense, I'm willing to cut them quite a lot of slack.

As far as Kpop nowadays, I kinda hate the recent girl group "format" where they add a rapper and the songs are extremely brainworm-y. Talking about groups like 2NE1, f(x), T-ara etc. To me SNSD is more or less the exception when it comes to their music, which I actually like. I have grown into the male groups more than anything, who have a surprisingly high quality output of dark tech-pop. Stuff like SuJu's Sorry Sorry and SHINee's Lucifer. The thing I like about Kpop these days is more the variety and entertainment shows, and stuff like Kim Taewoo's radio covers, than the actual new music. This is more than Jpop, where I just outright hate everything about it right now. SM Entertainment is a bit like that though, and while they have the best musical output for me, I'm more critical of their business practices (which include choke contracts and working their acts very hard).

If you're looking for quality acts, I think your best bet is to watch Music Travel Lalala, which is a showcase for the talent currently floating around the Kpop scene. A lot of slightly senior people also show up, and I mean that in the best way possible. The session musicians are pretty good too. I recommend episode 20090624 with SNSD and Super Junior (suju-clip, snsd-clip), 20090722 with Clazziquai Project episode (clip), and episode 20100623 with a huge cast of performers including the extremely talented 16 year old IU (clip).

And just to prove that cutesy kpop is still being made (which I like, obviously): IU - Marshmallow

I can't make any sense of this entire post at all :puppyeyes: I don't know what side of anything you're taking, and just plain don't understand almost the entirety of what you said :thumbsup:

#18 Haru

Haru
  • (◡‿◡✿)

Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:59 PM

///, I understood your post, but don't get all TL;DRy in my board. :puppyeyes:

I gotta admit, I myself am getting a little downtrodden by the hip-hop/rap trend in K-pop that's like our own. But there is a difference. The people who sing these songs are talented. If you want them live, they don't lip-sync. Compare any of the aritsts we have to anyone in K-pop live and I guarantee you they'll be ten and twenty times better. Compare Ke$ha's version of "Tik Tok" with Jessica and Krystal's version (it was just released about a week ago as a digital single). The song itself still sucks, but the girls sound loads better and English isn't even their first language.

I think it's really all taste wise though, musically. There are some actual pop groups out there (SNSD, in my opinion, is basically the Korean Musume -- different styles of music/different ranges), albeit they're hard to find.

I love Seo Taiji and SES and they had songs from either before I was born or like a toddler. But anyways I think it's all a matter of opinion about the type of music that you like, and I find that music changes from era to era and with each music change, depending on the person they tend to like the music and think it's really good, or in your case people dislike compared to the music and artists they liked before.


Well, you're a baby, Ari. :puppyeyes: I'm wanting to think you're quite a few years younger than me.
*pats* We still love you though.

#19 Al Kusanagi

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  • Iä! Iä! Sayumi Fhtagn!

Posted 14 September 2010 - 05:16 PM

So you're saying that rock doesn't exist in Korea? I liked a lot of Younha's Japanese pop-rock stuff, but did she flee Korea over rock persecution?

#20 Haru

Haru
  • (◡‿◡✿)

Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:14 PM

I didn't say that, but I personally have never heard Krock.

#21 JPope

JPope
  • Dick

Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:41 PM

But yes, music is subjective. The end.

You could close the thread with this.

Honest to God, what the fuck is the point of this thread, other than for AEUG to come in here and take a crap on people for liking KPOP? This is a troll thread, and nothing more. We get it, AEUG, you don't like KPOP. What's the point of a 1,400 word dissertation stating that fact? And don't give me this "oh I'm just trying to have a serious conversation" bullshit, either. You're trying to troll but make it appear as if you're not trolling. No one can "prove" to you anything about KPOP that you don't already believe, because music is subjective, but you already knew that, so your 1400 word thesis is an exercise in trolling. Every time someone tells you why they think KPOP is good, you just tell them that they're wrong and you're right. Just to make this point clear, in case I haven't driven it home sufficiently, I don't think you want to have dialogue so much as you want to have a monologue, and this thread is your platform to tell people that they are wrong to like KPOP. Because you said so. In other words, you're trolling.

#22 DarkRidley

DarkRidley
  • H!P Egg

Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:41 PM

I didn't say that, but I personally have never heard Krock.

There is Korean rock if you look around a bit. Most notably, a lot of Seo Taiji's solo work pursues a type of rock that is probably most comparable to Western nu-metal.

Edited by DarkRidley, 14 September 2010 - 07:42 PM.


#23 eri

eri
  • aka eri, the Alpha and the Omega

Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:58 PM

A friend of a friend of a friend, or something like that, actually got quite famous for organizing the first (and still only) rock festival in S.Korea. I have to bug my husband later for the details again, but I remember hearing that rock (hard rock, punk rock, anything other than pop-music-with-a-guitar-and-some-black-clothes) was quite rare in Korea.

Question: does it even make sense to nationally compare pop music?

Music industries are heavily influenced by the corporations churning them out and it works symbiotically with the audience (meaning, audiences end up liking what they are fed and corporations churn out what they think audiences like). Even though some people on this board still really fetishize the presence of Tsunku or whatnot, it is really hard to define pop music by the auteur because it is such a big collaborative environment --esp when you throw idols in the mix and that individual composers are influenced by a wide range of artists.

Also, aren't music genres basically created because they all fit a certain type and pattern? For that matter, global pop music all follows the lead of the US (for various reasons). If 90s Kpop copied crappy 90s pop, well so did crappy 90s Jpop and so the pattern continues.
Example:
Goto Maki - Be in Love
Jessica Simpson - Irresistible
Side by side comparison

The only big difference that falls "nationally" is the style of the star but this is also not as clear cut as one would think and it is very seasonal. So, Koreans like long legs this season, Japanese idols have funny teeth, American boy bands slide in and out of favor, etc, but what does it matter? I used to like Japanese boy idols for their boyishness and longish hair and now my American peers can enjoy Justin Bieber. It is all the same, in the end.

I think artificially imposing nationalist boundaries of pop music are methodologically unsound and point more to a persistent ideological investment in national difference. To discount the musical output of an ENTIRE COUNTRY for a span of time is ridiculous. It just comes down to liking individual groups and songs as a personal, subjective choice. I like H!P partly because I particularly like unpolished girls singing harmless, happy songs in frilly dresses -- which is something that Japanese companies tend to produce -- but really, it is just what I'm constantly exposed to. I'm sure if I joined a Taylor Swift forum 10 years ago, I might see a very different ipod play list. It isn't that "America" or "Japan" or for that matter "Korea" somehow produces better or worse music as a whole.

Edit: one more thing. This is the sort of (il)logic that gets me when other Americans immediately assume all Jpop "sucks" or when people get mad over non-Japanese idols in Japan. It has nothing to do with the actual music but their stereotyping of (or investment in) a specific location and the products that come out of it.

#24 DarkRidley

DarkRidley
  • H!P Egg

Posted 14 September 2010 - 08:52 PM

Honestly, I think that in common parlance, I don't see much of a problem in simply stating that you generally dislike music from a particular country if you've had experience with it before, even if it is a huge extrapolation. The real problem only comes when you begin to forget that music is subjective and that saying such a thing is technically absurd. Fact is, we all have biases stemming from what we associate with a particular "type" of music, and that isn't always along national lines. Usually it's just the different categories into which we place different types of pop music. I know I have them, because I could only tell you a handful of hip-hop songs I enjoy, and it has more to do with my preconceptions about that genre more than anything else.

In an extreme case such as these people who irrationally hate all J-pop, it's obviously coloured by cultural assumptions and associations, but it's also their honest feeling and it's very difficult to change that. That's not to say I like that attitude (because I don't, at all, no more than I like people who hate non-Japanese idols), but it's still hard to get someone to enjoy J-pop, for instance, after they've heard two or three songs they don't like and extended that over the whole country. I'm not saying it's worthless to try and convince them, but I do think that their irrationality is just as resilient as any person's musical preferences.

Nonetheless, more radical cases aside, the issue at the heart of it is that we're talking about our feelings and emotional reactions towards music here, and the associations we have with music, rather than talking about music on a more distant, rational level. If that's the intention, then of course we should dispense with massive generalisations about a country's musical output; otherwise, I think it's a necessary evil if we're to communicate our feelings effectively. It's unfortunate that we already have national labels like K-pop and J-pop that makes it easier for us to box them in. Once again, it's as you said before: music is subjective. As long as everyone participating in a discussion about music remembers that, I think that a few generalisations are harmless and to be expected". Hell, any genre category of music is in itself a generalisation, yet those categories are essential to most discussions about music.

#25 The☆AEUGNewtype

The☆AEUGNewtype
  • ♥ まいぷる ♥

Posted 14 September 2010 - 09:42 PM

But yes, music is subjective. The end.

You could close the thread with this.

Honest to God, what the fuck is the point of this thread, other than for AEUG to come in here and take a crap on people for liking KPOP? This is a troll thread, and nothing more. We get it, AEUG, you don't like KPOP. What's the point of a 1,400 word dissertation stating that fact? And don't give me this "oh I'm just trying to have a serious conversation" bullshit, either. You're trying to troll but make it appear as if you're not trolling. No one can "prove" to you anything about KPOP that you don't already believe, because music is subjective, but you already knew that, so your 1400 word thesis is an exercise in trolling. Every time someone tells you why they think KPOP is good, you just tell them that they're wrong and you're right. Just to make this point clear, in case I haven't driven it home sufficiently, I don't think you want to have dialogue so much as you want to have a monologue, and this thread is your platform to tell people that they are wrong to like KPOP. Because you said so. In other words, you're trolling.

I love how you completely disregard the fact that I clearly asked if anyone can recommend newer artists who are comparable to the artists I like in style and quality. Go shit in someone else's thread, please.

#26 neshcom

neshcom
  • back dat ass up to the cloud

Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:02 PM

But yes, music is subjective. The end.

You could close the thread with this.

Honest to God, what the fuck is the point of this thread, other than for AEUG to come in here and take a crap on people for liking KPOP? This is a troll thread, and nothing more. We get it, AEUG, you don't like KPOP. What's the point of a 1,400 word dissertation stating that fact? And don't give me this "oh I'm just trying to have a serious conversation" bullshit, either. You're trying to troll but make it appear as if you're not trolling. No one can "prove" to you anything about KPOP that you don't already believe, because music is subjective, but you already knew that, so your 1400 word thesis is an exercise in trolling. Every time someone tells you why they think KPOP is good, you just tell them that they're wrong and you're right. Just to make this point clear, in case I haven't driven it home sufficiently, I don't think you want to have dialogue so much as you want to have a monologue, and this thread is your platform to tell people that they are wrong to like KPOP. Because you said so. In other words, you're trolling.

I love how you completely disregard the fact that I clearly asked if anyone can recommend newer artists who are comparable to the artists I like in style and quality. Go shit in someone else's thread, please.

There's a recommended artists thread at the top of the forum where you could have posed your question. It's just that the title makes you seem entitled to all of this; we should prove to you that there is music that you like within the realm of k-pop, like we came to you and made some problem that we should fix. JPope maybe shat in your thread, but it's shaped a little bit like a toilet.

#27 Petit Melon

Petit Melon
  • Fruit Unity

Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:12 AM

Good thing Jpope came in and said what I was going to say.

"PROVE TO ME", come on dude, cut the BS. You came in with a preconcieved notion of what you like and what you don't like. I'm not going to prove to you anything.

In fact, I remember the last time you said that in the BBB thread for their last album. We gave you songs and singles and you replied with some bs "I'm not going to sit through a bunch of youtube songs" So NO I'm not going to give you any artists or "prove why Kpop doesn't suck". It's a waste of time.

#28 eri

eri
  • aka eri, the Alpha and the Omega

Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:24 AM

Nonetheless, more radical cases aside, the issue at the heart of it is that we're talking about our feelings and emotional reactions towards music here, and the associations we have with music, rather than talking about music on a more distant, rational level...I think it's a necessary evil if we're to communicate our feelings effectively.


I agree. Since people feel so deeply about their tastes and whatnot, their preferences tend to blur into some sort of truth. Like, "of course H!P is the greatest musical act of all time! I love them so much!"

The problem happens when people try to suppress the basis of their tastes in trying to "objectively" demonstrate why their choices are superior. It is reasonable for someone who is largely interested in Japan as a whole to enjoy Jpop. It is annoying when the same individual proclaims that he or she enjoys Jpop because it is "better" in some way than another country's music. It is common for a Jpop fan to internalize the same international sense of rivalry that Japan has with Korea, and root for S/mileage over SNDS. It is idiotic for the same fan to try to excuse their behavior on account of "S/mileage has way better music." It is normal to like AKB48 because you have a crush on some of the girls. It is foolish to proclaim your love for AKB48 is purely because they are musical geniuses. Note: I'm not saying AEUG did this but it is a common problem I see in the comment wars on arama :puppyeyes:

This is no different than when people arbitrarily categorize music genres too. I might have a crush on boys with guitars, but, rock music is not objectively "better" than pop music. I think there ARE ways to objectively discuss music but it is impossible to make someone a fan if they just personally don't enjoy something.

#29 JPope

JPope
  • Dick

Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:26 AM

There's a recommended artists thread at the top of the forum where you could have posed your question. It's just that the title makes you seem entitled to all of this; we should prove to you that there is music that you like within the realm of k-pop, like we came to you and made some problem that we should fix. JPope maybe shat in your thread, but it's shaped a little bit like a toilet.


I love that last line. To take the analogy further, this thread is a toilet of AEUG's own making for the express purpose of shitting on that which he doesn't personally like, and as Petit points out, he has a history of cloaking such rhetorical bowel movements in weasel words to give himself an escape hatch when he is inevitably called on it. He's not open to being "proven" wrong about anything, least of all something as subjective as musical tastes. He just wants the thrill of screaming "HEY LOOK AT ME! I DON'T LIKE THE STUFF YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT OVER HERE!" The weasel words this time are the BS about just wanting suggestions about new KPOP artists, but of course you deftly saw through that by pointing out that a thread for that expressed purpose already exists, and has for three weeks now. It is also conveniently pinned to the top of the forum. There is also the general KPOP thread that has existed for nearly two fucking years. But AEUG is special, so he needs a special thread to cater to his special tastes. Oh, and to yell "LOOK AT ME! I'M DIFFERENT!" Fuck that, noise. I'll shit on that every single time.

Good thing Jpope came in and said what I was going to say.

"PROVE TO ME", come on dude, cut the BS. You came in with a preconcieved notion of what you like and what you don't like. I'm not going to prove to you anything.

In fact, I remember the last time you said that in the BBB thread for their last album. We gave you songs and singles and you replied with some bs "I'm not going to sit through a bunch of youtube songs" So NO I'm not going to give you any artists or "prove why Kpop doesn't suck". It's a waste of time.

Exactly. There's nothing to "prove", anyway, as there's no way to objectively quantify "sucks" or "doesn't suck". Why should anyone give a flying rat's ass whether or not AEUG likes some KPOP artists or not? Go do your own fucking research just like everyone else here. Or if you really want help from us, don't be such a self-absorbed, demanding d-bag about it.

#30 eri

eri
  • aka eri, the Alpha and the Omega

Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:07 AM

:lol: