Brainstorming + Kimi Sae Ireba nani mo Iranai - Morning Musume's Swan Song to Reina

[Shoujo Q]

And now Anderei's comment makes sense. I'm like, what's on Thirteen? Then I had to read the whole previous page to find out.





So... this song isn't going to be the main single or is it? Conflicting reports everywhere!

[aine]

[quote name='Haru' timestamp='1362024183' post='145561']

[quote name='aine' timestamp='1362001472' post='145521'][quote name='Haru' timestamp='1361997835' post='145508']

Can we have a song that doesn't sound like this sometime soon? The first three singles were okay but now it's getting to be boring.

[/quote]

No, stfu. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /noway.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':noway:' />

[/quote]

Yes sir. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... ryalot.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cryalot:' />

Don't get me wrong, the other songs grew on me so this one likely will as well...just wish they didn't have like...nearly THE EXACT SAME SOUND. Wakuteka and Help me!! were different, but Help me!! and Brainstorming are like nearly identical.

[/quote]

Aw, you know I'd never say anything mean to you for reals Harunyan. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... smooch.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='=3=' />



I just love this electro sound and it hits the very sweet spot for me, so I can listen even average songs on repeat. And I like how someone pointed out that they actually managed to make something unique for themselves, a mix of idol disco, dubstep, EBM, and whatnot. It's like they hit a triple jackpot with a) unique, b) not embarrassing to listen to around non-fans, and c) obviously selling.



I do fear your wish will come through with the next single when they decided to try something new with Reina gone, but I'm crossing my fingers that it doesn't. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... smooch.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='=3=' />

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='Myst' timestamp='1361997819' post='145507']

I was thinking this yesterday, but then I remember, I'm not really a fan anymore, so it doesn't bother me! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... stling.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':whistling:' /> I feel like after a certain point, fans just started accepting they weren't ever going to be as good (songs, characters, diversity) as they were in the Golden Era and left. Then, the new fans came in after it was all over and never had as high expectations as some of the members that have been here the last 10 years or way longer. I know I still follow the group only to see if things will change (For me, after Kamei left, it was never as good!), but I never listen to the songs more than a few times before they are forgotten. Albums I don't even bother with (The last one I liked was Rainbow 7). The members aren't as displayed as they used to be, and it's hard to see people's characters anymore... everyone just blends into one, which is good from a group standpoint, but it's not why I like Morning Musume.

[/quote]

Wow, very well-said. Its hard for me to get to the point of saying I'm not a fan anymore, because, like you, I keep hoping things will be interesting again like they used to be, but after so long and so many releases being horrible to me, I think I'm finally at that point. When you hold something that close to you, its pretty hard to give up hope and it still bothers me a little, but I guess moving on comes with time. I still partially follow for social reasons, since a ton of my friends still follow the stuff, but I find nothing but disappointment in 90% of H!P now.



And agreed, there really is no individual character left, and hasn't been for quite a while besides irritating Sayumi and needs-to-get-the-fuck-out Reina. They don't need to be displayed so much anymore because they have wota who will buy and support every little morsel of BS that they put out without batting an eye, so why do extra work and effort to make it interesting when you don't have to? Modern fans will argue this isn't true, but its because they've been following every minutiae of the group since before these members even got there, so they have insignificant trivia to associate with each member. But anyway, its refreshing to hear



[quote name='Petit Hulk' timestamp='1362017752' post='145548']

So FUCK YOUR MULTIPLE EDITIONS HATE AEUG because we get DIFFERENT B-SIDES FOR EACH ONE so it's like getting a GODDAMN MINI ALBUM EVERY SINGLE RELEASE. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/geof.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':geof:' />

[/quote]

BUT IF ALL THE SONGS SUCK THEN WHAT'S THE POINT? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nceman.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':danceman:' />



[quote name='Makky' timestamp='1362016204' post='145545']

They're not so autotuned and electropopped that they sound like Perfume, but these last few singles (in my opinion) don't sound like any other idol groups out right now.

AKB48 is going with their Onyanko Club pt.2 sound along with all the other idol groups I can think of right now (Passpo, LinQ, other not H!P groups dangit brain what are you doing...?)

[/quote]

Well, you just admitted they sound like Perfume (who suck themselves now) and besides that, you can find this sound in droves in Kpop, as Tsunku will tell you himself. To act like they're doing something unqiue right now, especially since the sound has been exactly the same for multiple releases is just plain delusional. There's a number of idol groups out there doing FAR more diverse or unique things with their music, I guess you're just not aware of any of them.

[Sabaku Ika]

I like this song. All complaints about excessive processing are true, but I cared about that, I'd never have started listening to idol pop to begin with. It is catchy. Also a bit generic, which is why I might not listen to it ever again.

[star]

@AEUG,

If you read it, it says they don't sound like Perfume.

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='Star' timestamp='1362087084' post='145612']

@AEUG,

If you read it, it says they don't sound like Perfume.

[/quote]

Yes, it says not quite as processed, but anyone who denies that the vocals don't sound like Perfume's are kidding themselves. They sound devoid of anything that is natural of a human voice, and the original timbre is completely lost to create a horrible, grating noise that has a pitch and syllables associated with it, kinda like vocaloid. At least with stuff like Kikkawa, even when her songs have some parts with auto-tune and processing, it still sounds very clearly like a human voice and retains all the timbre and it sounds awesome, and its usually only used for really short bursts, not for the whole song like MM/Perfume.

[Pucchi-Mo]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1362084547' post='145607'] -And agreed, there really is no individual character left, and hasn't been for quite a while besides irritating Sayumi and needs-to-get-the-fuck-out Reina. They don't need to be displayed so much anymore because they have wota who will buy and support every little morsel of BS that they put out without batting an eye, so why do extra work and effort to make it interesting when you don't have to? Modern fans will argue this isn't true, but its because they've been following every minutiae of the group since before these members even got there, so they have insignificant trivia to associate with each member. But anyway, its refreshing to hear



-To act like they're doing something unqiue right now, especially since the sound has been exactly the same for multiple releases is just plain delusional. There's a number of idol groups out there doing FAR more diverse or unique things with their music, I guess you're just not aware of any of them.

[/quote]

I haven't noticed many individual characters in the group, but in the older days, I followed them super closely and had so many more chances/ways to actually see their personalities. I'm not in any way saying that the older generations were really just as plain, but I do think that it's possible that someone outside of the fandom could have made such a conclusion. Really, there was plenty of insignificant trivia association with that era too.



Also I feel that the language barrier is a significant factor in missing the personalities of the group since there are only so many appearances these days. Before it was like we could see a boring interview appearance, which was no big deal because moments later we could watch another show where the girls did something hilarious and the lack of understanding was less noticeable.



About their sound being unique, I think it is unique in the sense that they have it down to a painfully predictable formula, and it's so specific that there is no way that someone else can really sound like it. It's like now they construct the singles with changes in each part that are an indicator for who is going to sing.



It's more or less



intro|front girls sing|rush through the bulk of the group part|robosayu somewhere|riho|Sakura outburst|chorus

& repeat + dance break + outro



I wonder how I would feel about BRESTO if I heard it before hearing Help Me!! Well, I know I would have still made the Wakuteka comparison.



Help Me!! seems like it was made after BRESTO, after they considered what it was missing. It adds the speech at the start, and the vocal mixing was more interesting and it created a mood with the creepy high & low audio, along with the balance of the subdued parts and the energetic parts. The vocal remixing in BRESTO's dance break lacked heart, and the melody they played with that part didn't really make things catchier. It was more like, we have so many songs to make and this is the last song where we ran out of music juice.



With that said, I really like the chorus, that's the one feature of the song that stands out to me and something that wasn't recycled.



The sad part is, Okubo can actually do a variety of things arrangement-wise, but he has been super pigeonholed.

[rob]

sigh... so is this where we all get to argue with AEUG again?



OPINION BATTLE!<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... adwall.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':headwall:' />

[Kalle]

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1362102444' post='145625']

sigh... so is this where we all get to argue with AEUG again?



OPINION BATTLE!<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... adwall.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':headwall:' />

[/quote]



Yeah, honestly, it's fine to criticize and all but this is turning into a straight-up derail. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nfused.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> Can't there be one unified 'debate over whether MM sounds good or not recently' thread and just have that happen there?



BACK ON TOPIC, I'm really hoping we get news about whether the leaked b-side titles and shuffles are true or not so I can place my order!

[Pucchi-Mo]

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1362102444' post='145625']

sigh... so is this where we all get to argue with AEUG again?



OPINION BATTLE!<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... adwall.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':headwall:' />

[/quote]



If it Doesn't Rain, Will the Stars Not Love?

[showraniy]

What? Guys, this "discussion about relevant stuff derails the thread" nonsense is, well, nonsense. This is the second time I've seen valid discussion of valid topic frowned on because it'll spawn extended posts. Yeah, I can get down with AEUG being a broken record, but the music breakdown discussion is directly related to the single.



But I also admit I'm the queen of long tangents on sort-of related topics, so maybe I'm wrong. But I still feel like it's a little ridiculous to say discussing the arrangement of the thread's topic is derailing it. Two cents.

[Ap2000]

If it wasn't MM singing this, I'd call the group stealing nearly everything from the last two MM singles...

In nearly every single aspect and not just "same theme/idea". I think this song has no right to exist.



[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1362101448' post='145623']

[quote name='Star' timestamp='1362087084' post='145612']

@AEUG,

If you read it, it says they don't sound like Perfume.

[/quote]

Yes, it says not quite as processed, but anyone who denies that the vocals don't sound like Perfume's are kidding themselves. They sound devoid of anything that is natural of a human voice, and the original timbre is completely lost to create a horrible, grating noise that has a pitch and syllables associated with it, kinda like vocaloid. At least with stuff like Kikkawa, even when her songs have some parts with auto-tune and processing, it still sounds very clearly like a human voice and retains all the timbre and it sounds awesome, and its usually only used for really short bursts, not for the whole song like MM/Perfume.

[/quote]



I really like several Perfume songs and listen to at least a dozen rather frequently, but this MM doesn't sound the same. The voice processing is very different and not as high quality.

Perfume sounds more like a computer that tries to make melodies, whereas MM does still sound like girls (trying) to sing, but have a hard time because of their voices being processed in generic and cheap ways.

I do think Perfume sounds a lot better, but at the same time I don't want MM to use the same voice-alteration Perfume does. It wouldn't fit and it isn't what I want from MM.



However, they seem to be hitting the taste buds of more people with this kind of songs, since they sold some 85~110k copies of the last three singles, which is more than double of that the sold before. And right now H!P is milking that, even if I don't like it.



One two three was a cool song and I genuinly liked it a lot, but I hope they jump off this electro bandwagon again soon, because the songs got insanely stale.

[Anderei]

I think One Two Three is actually my least favorite of all the electro-singles.



I'm looking forward to seeing how everyone pulls off those lines live. ESPECIALLY Ayumi.

[Purin-chama]

[quote name='showraniy' timestamp='1362104541' post='145629']

What? Guys, this "discussion about relevant stuff derails the thread" nonsense is, well, nonsense. This is the second time I've seen valid discussion of valid topic frowned on because it'll spawn extended posts. Yeah, I can get down with AEUG being a broken record, but the music breakdown discussion is directly related to the single.



But I also admit I'm the queen of long tangents on sort-of related topics, so maybe I'm wrong. But I still feel like it's a little ridiculous to say discussing the arrangement of the thread's topic is derailing it. Two cents.

[/quote]

I was going to comment on this too. I'm glad you beat me to it! Adding to this, isn't having an opinion and commenting on various aspects of the group and song part of the reason we open threads to each release? This would just be a news board if it wasn't. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



[quote name='Pucchi mo' timestamp='1362102185' post='145624']

I haven't noticed many individual characters in the group, but in the older days, I followed them super closely and had so many more chances/ways to actually see their personalities. I'm not in any way saying that the older generations were really just as plain, but I do think that it's possible that someone outside of the fandom could have made such a conclusion. Really, there was plenty of insignificant trivia association with that era too.



Also I feel that the language barrier is a significant factor in missing the personalities of the group since there are only so many appearances these days. Before it was like we could see a boring interview appearance, which was no big deal because moments later we could watch another show where the girls did something hilarious and the lack of understanding was less noticeable.

[/quote]

See, I brought up the individuality thing because, while it may be a language barrier, the girls in the group are pointed more towards being liked by the wota than by the general public. For all I know, it could have been because I was so young, but I always felt that between 4th gen. and 8th gen., they really pushed each girl to have a set character. No one really had the same one, and in their singles, their outfits tended to reflect a bit of the girls' character more than they do now (Different colors are good, but Rika always dressed super girly, Yossi always was boyish, Tsuji and her giant bows, etc). Granted, they did have one costume type for the entire group at times, but they often ranged from pants to skirts to dresses to suit each member better. The current members of the group (aside from Sayumi and Reina) have no way of showing the general public who they are because the group isn't invited onto many shows anymore, and when they are, they don't often get more than 5-10 minutes of interviews. The few I've tried to look at had Sayumi doing a lot of the talking while everyone else was fairly quiet. I know when 9th gen. joined, the girls seemed like they were going to shine through (Kanon's bug imitations), but after Maji desu, it kind of disappeared. There's no Haromoni or regular program displaying the girls personalities. H!P Station is a plus if they utilize it, but it's online only, right? (I really don't know. I thought I remember seeing it was...) I just feel like H!P is there to please the wota and the general public may matter to Sayumi, but management isn't able to (or won't?) go the same route as her hopes. Granted, their sales are higher, but I feel that has more to do with the various editions than the general public. I could be wrong though.



How this relates to Brainstorming?



Despite their lack of individuality shown in singles, the group is way more unified than I feel it's been in a while, but during the dance, they just all blended into one for me. I had a hard to keeping focus on the girls in blue because they faded into the background. Several other board members also mentioned not being able to find such-and-such a girl during the dance. I do like that they gave Haruka a hat, but all the girls look fairly similar in hair color/length, outfits, and even height. I had a hard time telling all of them apart without some distinguished feature (even if it is their member color).



The group just has a hard time keeping my attention for very long. Ultimately, I just would really like to have a Haromoni-like program for the girls to extend their skills past singing and dancing because for them as idols, they do a pretty decent job of that now as shown with these last few singles.

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='Myst' timestamp='1362107629' post='145634']

See, I brought up the individuality thing because, while it may be a language barrier, the girls in the group are pointed more towards being liked by the wota than by the general public. For all I know, it could have been because I was so young, but I always felt that between 4th gen. and 8th gen., they really pushed each girl to have a set character. No one really had the same one, and in their singles, their outfits tended to reflect a bit of the girls' character more than they do now (Different colors are good, but Rika always dressed super girly, Yossi always was boyish, Tsuji and her giant bows, etc). Granted, they did have one costume type for the entire group at times, but they often ranged from pants to skirts to dresses to suit each member better. The current members of the group (aside from Sayumi and Reina) have no way of showing the general public who they are because the group isn't invited onto many shows anymore, and when they are, they don't often get more than 5-10 minutes of interviews. The few I've tried to look at had Sayumi doing a lot of the talking while everyone else was fairly quiet. I know when 9th gen. joined, the girls seemed like they were going to shine through (Kanon's bug imitations), but after Maji desu, it kind of disappeared. There's no Haromoni or regular program displaying the girls personalities. H!P Station is a plus if they utilize it, but it's online only, right? (I really don't know. I thought I remember seeing it was...) I just feel like H!P is there to please the wota and the general public may matter to Sayumi, but management isn't able to (or won't?) go the same route as her hopes. Granted, their sales are higher, but I feel that has more to do with the various editions than the general public. I could be wrong though.



How this relates to Brainstorming?



Despite their lack of individuality shown in singles, the group is way more unified than I feel it's been in a while, but during the dance, they just all blended into one for me. I had a hard to keeping focus on the girls in blue because they faded into the background. Several other board members also mentioned not being able to find such-and-such a girl during the dance. I do like that they gave Haruka a hat, but all the girls look fairly similar in hair color/length, outfits, and even height. I had a hard time telling all of them apart without some distinguished feature (even if it is their member color).



The group just has a hard time keeping my attention for very long. Ultimately, I just would really like to have a Haromoni-like program for the girls to extend their skills past singing and dancing because for them as idols, they do a pretty decent job of that now as shown with these last few singles.

[/quote]



I have a lot of thoughts on this and I'm having a hard time organizing them. Bear with me guys. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hahaha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' />



First, I think there are both good and bad aspects of pushing each girl to have a distinct character. You've already described a lot of the good above - easier to market, easier to recognize the girls, etc. On the bad side, it turns everyone into actresses instead of people. They become molds. You expect every answer they're going to give or how they'll react to any situation (see: Momoko). It all works for a few years, but then those girls grow up and naturally as people probably change some. In the best situation, that's when they graduate and transition into a new character. In the worst situation they're so tied to that marketing gimmick that we get a Kago situation.



I'm not at all saying that the members now are more "real" and never fake anything for TV. I think an element of "faking it" is important to any celebrity's career. You have to find what about you is distinct and exaggerate it to a level that's noticeable. You have to know what's going to make people react and be drawn to you. But there has to be an element of balance to it if the person is going to stick around for a long time - and that seems to be what H!P is going for these days. The element of unity that you mentioned just can't be achieved when you have members rotating in and out all the time.



I do think the lack of variety opportunities is holding MM back and that a lot of the girls' personalities is hidden away in DVD Magazines and online shows. But what they lack is a sense of competition. I think that more than the forced characters is what really made the golden era girls shine. The girls now are all friends and love H!P and just want to hug. The girls seem to be content to let Riho take all of the lines and Sayu have all the screen time. Back in the day everyone fought for their moment in the front and they knew that winning over fans would get them more singing parts. If Tsunku had a show where he made everyone pass a gauntlet of crazy idol games in order to compete for who got the most lines on the next single, you'd see a lot of personality come out. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



As for Brainstorming, I really think most people are having trouble telling everyone apart because the video itself is poor quality. When a HQ version comes out I'd be curious to see if everyone still had trouble.

[Duncan]

Like everyone has mentioned, this song is just all over the place. I believe it was the Onion AV Club who said Call Me Maybe's power was having three songs worth of hooks crammed into one single track. Brainstorming feels like the remnants of those three songs stitched back together. I enjoy little bits here and there, but nothing that locks hold of me. That said, its far from awful and you can tell they put a lot of money behind the visuals. It's just sort of off-putting seeing all this effort put into an end-product that feels very safe.

[Purin-chama]

[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1362109629' post='145636']

If Tsunku had a show where he made everyone pass a gauntlet of crazy idol games in order to compete for who got the most lines on the next single, you'd see a lot of personality come out. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

[/quote]

That actually sounds kind of fun <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



But I never thought of the bad on the situation, but I totally agree with that point of view.

[rob]

I love this song <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nceman.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':danceman:' />

[MiniLovely]

Jee-ZUS, I think I missed the invite to the poo poo party. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hatthe.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':whatthe:' />



Brainstorming doesn't strike me as interesting in any way, really. So much of he choreography is recycled, too. Yawn. Time for a change.

[Anderei]

Just to answer rob, H!P Station is online. They've spent the past three episodes golfing. It's very exciting.

[Melon]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1362084547' post='145607']

BUT IF ALL THE SONGS SUCK THEN WHAT'S THE POINT? <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nceman.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':danceman:' />



[/quote]



BUT BUT BUT BUT MOAR SONGS=POSSIBILITY OF SONG I WILL LIKE! <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... pyeyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' />





[quote name='Pucchi mo' timestamp='1362103436' post='145627']

If it Doesn't Rain, Will the Stars Not Love?

[/quote]



<img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /weeeh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':weeeh:' />

[yuzuriha]

[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1362109629' post='145636']



As for Brainstorming, I really think most people are having trouble telling everyone apart because the video itself is poor quality. When a HQ version comes out I'd be curious to see if everyone still had trouble.

[/quote]



I'd say definitely. I had a hard time the first time because I kept it on the small screen and was at work, but the second time I fullscreened it and was able to tell everyone apart just fine.

[Anderei]

I don't know why, but its the red people blending together for me. I could easily identify everyone in blue.

[kira]

[quote name='Anderei' timestamp='1362160306' post='145686']

I don't know why, but its the red people blending together for me. I could easily identify everyone in blue.

[/quote]



Same here, everyone I couldn't identify was wearing red.



I realized that part of this song reminds me of "Get Up! Rapper". I don't think that was on purpose though.

[yuzuriha]

I also realized the pointing the finger at the head move was used in "Onna to Otoko no Lullaby Game" besides "HELP ME!!"

[Purin-chama]

[quote name='kira' timestamp='1362168969' post='145711']

[quote name='Anderei' timestamp='1362160306' post='145686']

I don't know why, but its the red people blending together for me. I could easily identify everyone in blue.

[/quote]



Same here, everyone I couldn't identify was wearing red.

[/quote]

It wasn't so much that I couldn't identify them, but while watching the dance, I kept focusing on the red girls because red on black is more eye popping than blue on black.

[honey]

I'm worried about how this will sound live with the dance being so intense.

[BonkyuAsh]

[quote name='kira' timestamp='1362168969' post='145711']

[quote name='Anderei' timestamp='1362160306' post='145686']

I don't know why, but its the red people blending together for me. I could easily identify everyone in blue.

[/quote]



Same here, everyone I couldn't identify was wearing red.



I realized that part of this song reminds me of "Get Up! Rapper". I don't think that was on purpose though.

[/quote]

I totally get the Get up Rapper vibe from it too.

[star]

I had my dog growlng along to the song while I played with her. I play with her by basically waving my foot in front of her face, then she either darts at it and misses, or gets a hold of my foot and I play tug of war over my foot. Well, I didn't realize it, but I was pulling my foot away with the beat, and she growled each time I moved it. It was pretty funny.

[yuzuriha]

That's adorable!