Koharu's Youngtown Apperance

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='Shoujo Q' timestamp='1359025595' post='142529']

Read all of TnB's post. Used a high squeaky annoying voice for Koharu the whole time without even realizing it.

[/quote]



Now add in a chain smoker voice for Sanma and you have my pain for 5 or so hours of listening to make sure I got everything. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

[emily]

What does this mean in the context of Japanese culture, though? What we view as a "scandal" might be different from their interpretation.. I get the impression that everything is more subtle..



I remember a scandal in 2005 in which Ayumi Hamasaki and TOKIO appeared together on Music Station. Ayu and Nagase were engaged, but she had recently been in NY buying an engagement ring with some guy that was not Nagase. On the episode, she was laughing and smiling. Nagase was making faces I have never seen him make while his slut girlfriend was giggling a few seats away like nothing happened. Some North American people watched the episode and said that it didn't look like anything bad was happening, but I was told that in the context of Japanese culture, it was a big deal.



ETA: Thank-you TnB.

[Melon]

Thank you tnb, for your hard work. :)

[rob]

[quote name='Ap2000' timestamp='1359022631' post='142526']

[quote name='rob' timestamp='1359008518' post='142519']

English language is like tennis [..]

Japanese language is like bowling [..]

[/quote]



That is a very interesting and probably mostly fitting comparison. Did you come up with that yourself or heard/read it somewhere ?

[/quote]



Actually.... I'm 99% sure I came up with that one

[momoirosaya]

[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1359031920' post='142533']

[quote name='Shoujo Q' timestamp='1359025595' post='142529']

Read all of TnB's post. Used a high squeaky annoying voice for Koharu the whole time without even realizing it.

[/quote]



Now add in a chain smoker voice for Sanma and you have my pain for 5 or so hours of listening to make sure I got everything. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

[/quote]

I find Sanma annoying too(>_<)

[yuzuriha]

[quote name='Shoujo Q' timestamp='1359025595' post='142529']

Read all of TnB's post. Used a high squeaky annoying voice for Koharu the whole time without even realizing it. That made it ten times worse because the way it's written, you can just feel the entitled spoiled character of hers coming out of the sentences. I really don't like people like that, which is probably why I never liked Koharu. At least she admits she can't sing.





Though it seems Kikka lost a bit of respect for Koharu.



It was an interesting read over-all. Thank you TnB for posting. :)

[/quote]





You took the words right out of my mouth.



Now I totally understand why Sayu was ripping out her eyebrows while mentoring Koharu, jesus.









Thank you for the translation tnb!

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='emily' timestamp='1359035061' post='142536']

What does this mean in the context of Japanese culture, though? What we view as a "scandal" might be different from their interpretation.. I get the impression that everything is more subtle..



I remember a scandal in 2005 in which Ayumi Hamasaki and TOKIO appeared together on Music Station. Ayu and Nagase were engaged, but she had recently been in NY buying an engagement ring with some guy that was not Nagase. On the episode, she was laughing and smiling. Nagase was making faces I have never seen him make while his slut girlfriend was giggling a few seats away like nothing happened. Some North American people watched the episode and said that it didn't look like anything bad was happening, but I was told that in the context of Japanese culture, it was a big deal.



ETA: Thank-you TnB.

[/quote]



First of all... slut shaming. Please don't do it. I'm really surprised to see it from someone who was so offended by the Wakuteka PV o.O I think the rest of that story has a lot of rumors mixed up with facts, so I'm kind of confused there.



But on the topic of Japanese cultural context for Koharugate -



I think rob addressed it pretty well already, and eri also mentioned respect issues. I haven't seen any major articles circulating around about this (admittedly, I haven't specifically looked for them). There's always going to be some tabloid action and an angry fan reaction, but I don't think it's a major scandal - if it were, I would expect to see some action taken by now. Her agency would have issued a statement at the least. Sayumi only wrote on her blog "Koharu was her usual self (lol). No, I think she might have heated up a bit (lol). This feeling also made me nostalgic (sparkle)." If it were a major deal, I think her manager would have forbidden her from mentioning the topic at all. It would have been the Kago treatment - quick, pretend she never existed!



In terms of general reaction - Imagine if Beyonce did an interview and said "Oh I always wanted to do my own thing, Destiny's Child was just a stepping stone. I wanted a different type of fan." Some people would say "You go girl, you were the real talent, fuck destiny's child!" but others would think "Wow, that's so unnecessary and rude of her to say. She's great on her own but she should show some respect to the other girls and the fans that got her there." I think the Japanese fan reaction to Koharu is split the same way, perhaps with more people tending towards the later opinion. The difference in my example is that Beyonce is generally known as a pretty smart business woman and is well spoken. Koharu is generally known as a loose canon and not great with words. I'm assuming her fanbase from her MM days already knew this about her and was generally ok with it.

[JPope]

[quote name='Shoujo Q' timestamp='1359025595' post='142529']

Though it seems Kikka lost a bit of respect for Koharu.

[/quote]

It sure does, which reflects well on Kikka.

[JPope]

[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1359006331' post='142514']

[quote name='showraniy' timestamp='1359004459' post='142512']

Nothing to see here.

[/quote]

This was said all along, yet people continued to flip the hell out about it. Koharu was speaking her mind and being really honest and Sayumi didn't know how to react to it without breaking her character and it made her uncomfortable, and H!P fans see that as a reason to bring out the hatewagon for Koharu again. When being around honesty makes a girl freak out like Sayu did, that should be a pretty good indicator of how phony she is.



Move along, folks, nothing to see here. Except horse pictures. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... nceman.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':danceman:' />

[/quote]

Well bless your heart! Yes, this was said all along by a couple of members, but not by you. At any point i the thread. Until now. In fact the first words off of your keyboard in reaction to this event were, "This is pretty amazing."



[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1358819890' post='142243']

This is pretty amazing. Koharu has always been a badass and it always felt like management treated her like dogshit most of the time she was more active, so this feels like vindication for me in the opposite direction, that someone is actually standing up and criticizing shitty UFA management to their faces. Making fun on Sayumi on the air? Just icing on that cake. Go fuckin' get 'em, Koha. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/geof.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':geof:' />

[/quote]



Translation: Nothing to see here. Move along.



A few posts further down, you opined:



[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1358825329' post='142251']

Idols being bitches and being vocal about stuff is what the industry needs more of, in my opinion. I've been really tired of idols doing the usual super-fake act for the last few years, I guess that's why I gravitated more towards Idoling!!! or some of the smaller unknowns who don't over-do the idol act so much, its really refreshing.

[/quote]



You find Koharu's "honesty to be "really refreshing. In other words, a nothing-burger.



You then doubled-down on that theme:



[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1358843920' post='142266']

All I'm trying to say is that there should be more little moments and behaviors of honesty in the industry. We all know it's never going to be 100% honest, and that would actually be pretty boring, but at least seeing some raw honesty come through every once in a while is extremely refreshing and endearing.

[/quote]



Koharu is "refreshing!" Her actions are "endearing!" You know, whatevs, not that there's anything to notice about her actions, though. Move along. Nothing to see here.



Then you got your Wymyn's Studies 101 on:



[quote name='The☆AEUGNewtype' timestamp='1358901221' post='142318']

It seems to me nowadays that Japanese women are starting to greatly appreciate public honesty from other women in recent years, as its really liberating to have women with an outward sense of pride and strength in an extremely sexist and repressed society, so I'd say even if the female magazine patrons knew of these shows, they'd probably like her more than before.[/quote]



Wow! That's some deep, important shit going on, there! Or, you know, not.



Nope nothing to see here, move along. AUEG said so right from the start. Yep, he sure did.

[Enmiz]

Thanks for the translation, TnB!



Koharu just needs to learn respect, it seems. Good for her for getting where she wanted to go either way. Especially the leaving MM part.



Also, PQ has my vote for best horse picture. It should be one of the annual BBS awards categories or an honorable mention of some sort.

[Cyrene]

I never thought she looked like a horse, I feel like she always looked like a puppy... <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... stling.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':whistling:' />

[eri]

Thanks for your translation TnB!



[quote name='TnB' timestamp='1359049015' post='142551']

I haven't seen any major articles circulating around about this (admittedly, I haven't specifically looked for them). There's always going to be some tabloid action and an angry fan reaction, but I don't think it's a major scandal

[/quote]



I agree, though I took the liberty of googling Koharu's name to see any reaction <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

Not going to go through these but here are some links and first lines.



Cyzo: http://www.cyzo.com/2013/01/post_12407.html

Lede: Former Morning Musume member and current exclusive-contract CanCam model, Kusumi Koharu, has stirred some public criticism over her comments on a radio show.

EDIT: whoa this story is full of shit talking by anonymous "women's magazine editor" <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> I will not reprint her words here, lest the battle over KK's memory keep going but lets just say she has some detractors, wow. (edit again - but keep in mind that Cyzo is a tabloid)



RBB Today (never heard of this site): http://www.rbbtoday.com/article/2013/01/21/101509.html

Title: "Morning Musume was just a stepping stone." "Idols have to flirt" - Kusumi Koharu's words leave Michishige speechless.



LiveDoor: http://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/7337254/

Title: On Kusumi Koharu's attitude towards her sempai, Sanma says "If I was your manager, I'd smack you."

Edit #29481. Goddamnit, I ended up reading all of the links after all. But this article was kind of interesting because it mostly highlighted KK's bad behavior when Sayumi was trying to train her. Not only was she rude to send off her sempai on trivial errands or lazy (not trying to learn to do things properly on her own but constantly replying/bothering others), but even now she does not think it was odd. Her response on the show "but we're part of the same group!" makes it worse because she puts herself on the same level of the other members (aka ungrateful and also disrespectful).



In other words, this is not *merely* the complaints of fans who want some idealized vision of idolhood. KK's words are considered controversial vis-a-vis general social etiquette. But imo, it is kind of like a mini-version of whatsherface's "Nothing" (betsu-ni) rudeness at that press conference. Rude enough to get a bit of stir, honest enough to be a relief for others, but generally not anything big enough to mark her with career boosting notoriety. Just makes people roll their eyes at her being clueless, entitled, and disrespectful.

[JPope]

Being completely serious here, what Koharu needed was some of this. I love that the 4th Gen girls are immediately yanked into reality by the other girls: the party's over, so get your shit together because we're not all that happy to have you.



Whoever decided to make Sayumi her mentor needed to have their head examined, though. Almost anyone else in the group at the time would have been better.

[freezingkiss]

LOL Yuko was like 'oh for fucks sake'. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... #>/wub.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wub:' />

[Haru]

[quote name='Saya' timestamp='1359014522' post='142522']

I get what Koharu means. I'm not offended by it. You all hate Koha anyways so you guys would all hate her no matter what she says :P

Makes me think of one of the AKB documentary's where they're asking the girls why they joined AKB. They all have various reasons...the wanted to be a singer, an actress, a model, etc... not many said they joined just to be in AKB (except Amina for sure).



You see girls audition for one idol group, and then months later pop up in another one. They all just want to get into show biz for various reasons. It kind of does shock me that Sayu has no dreams further than MM. I just think Koharu doesn't know how to eloquently put her feelings so they end up sounding a bit blunt.

[/quote]



This exactly. I've become more of a Koharu fan since she left Momusu and in a way, moreso after this. I kind of appreciate her blunt honesty; but I think I'm probably missing something ~*BIG AND SCANDALOUS*~.

I just really can't be fucked to read all of it.

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='JPope' timestamp='1359081512' post='142605']

Whoever decided to make Sayumi her mentor needed to have their head examined, though. Almost anyone else in the group at the time would have been better.

[/quote]



If I remember correctly, I think the idea was that if they gave Sayumi someone to be in charge of she'd take more responsibility and mature some herself. Obviously that didn't work out. It took the last of the 5th gen leaving for her to start telling people what to do. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

[Madara]

Okay, I finally read the transcript (thanks, TnB!). I have mixed feelings about all of this. On one level, it's just Koharu being her usual clueless, self-absorbed, high-maintenance self and there's nothing surprising about it. Besides, I always enjoy it when someone cracks the idol facade and indulges in total honesty in the Japanese media. However, I feel bad for Sayumi here. Without being able to see this conversation, I don't know whether she was smiling or laughing when she responded to Koharu's remarks, y'know, taking it in stride and thinking to herself that Koharu's just being Koharu. Or if she was genuinely upset. Sayumi's put a solid ten years of her life into MM, the ten best years of an idol's tenure, and given up on other possibilities she might have explored had she left the group at, say, 18 or so. Once she leaves MM, many of her other options will have gradually dwindled away. I don't think it's a bad thing for her to be challenged once in a while and made to think about these things, but it might have been really hurtful to hear them from Koharu this way. And it pains me to think Sayumi might have been hurt here. So it's harder for me to brush off Koharu's remarks so easily. I think maybe it's time she grew up a little.

[Melon]

Give me a fucking break. Sayu is, was, and still will be bigger than Koharu. Sit down. She has a career in variety, and so long as she keeps her barbs coming, I don't she'll have trouble out of MM. MM needs Sayu because she's their only TV presence, not the other way around. Even Yaguchi still had a variety career.



Like being a mediocre model is more worthy or challenging. LOLOL Bitch said herself she doesn't even work at that either.

[Madara]

[quote name='Petit Hulk' timestamp='1359133697' post='142641']

Give me a fucking break. Sayu is, was, and still will be bigger than Koharu. Sit down. She has a career in variety, and so long as she keeps her barbs coming, I don't she'll have trouble out of MM. MM needs Sayu because she's their only TV presence, not the other way around. Even Yaguchi still had a variety career.



Like being a mediocre model is more worthy or challenging. LOLOL Bitch said herself she doesn't even work at that either.

[/quote]



I admit I tend to view Sayumi only through the prism of Morning Musume and remain unfamiliar with the scope or nature of her work outside of MM. If you're suggesting that I shouldn't worry about Koharu's words fazing her, fine. I sincerely hope they didn't. But I can't know what goes on in her head.

[tomelord]

I have come late to this thread. I just wanted to find out what all the fuss was about Koharu-chan's radio appearance.



I had no idea there were so many Koharu haters.



I think it was great that Koharu-chan spoke her mind. I think the Japanese get too caught up in their version of Confucian politeness that it becomes oppressive especially to young ladies.



I have always found Michishige Sayumi to be rather obnoxious. On YouTube I saw her appearance on a show called "Music Fighter" where she was very rude to the female host, implying that the host was old. Sayumi also kept going on about how cute she was, and how she was hired for her cuteness. It made it seem like she was quite full of herself.



I think Koharu was set-up by Sayumi and this Samna guy. In the dialog, Koharu says she was glad to have the opportunity to appear on the show thanks the cancellation of the other guest. That she hasn't been on the show for a long time. And Sayumi says something like "You know why that is?" I think here she is implying that Koharu is no longer as popular as she once was because she left Morning Musume to become a model. I think Koharu saying all that negative stuff about her experience in the group was to drown out the possibility of Sayumi or that Samna a-hole from saying that her career was on the skids. She wanted to make sure that everyone knows that this is where she wants to be.



While I always perceived Koharu-chan to be kind of the ditzy cheerleader type, I never found her to be as blunt and obnoxious as Sayumi. I think she was just making sure Sayumi didn't make any unnecessary obnoxious remarks about her career and her choice to be a model.



Another Morning Musume TV appearance that I managed to see on YouTube was where Koharu-chan and Sayumi showed up at a little girl's house as a surprise. Before the surprise, an interviewer asked the little girl who was favorite and least favorite Morning Musume member. The girl said Kusumi Koharu was her favorite and Michishige Sayumi was her least favorite. She said that Koharu was cute and she liked her singing, and she didn't like Michishige because she said mean things all the time.



As far as I am concerned Kusumi Koharu was the prettiest young lady to ever be involved in H!P and perhaps she is a bit of a show business phony, but they all are. I think a lot people just dislike her because she is beautiful and was chosen for Morning Musume based on her looks.

[al kusanagi]

See, Sayumi played a CHARACTER when she started out doing TV appearances, and there's footage of her apologizing to people after those shows for being in character. When people legitimately started to hate her, she started to be the sweet, humble Sayu we see on her blog. They need to reign in Momoko's ass since she's passing the level of hatred people had for Evil Sayu.



As for Koharu, Bronn says it best.

[rob]

Matt - You are so badly deluded I almost feel sorry for you.



As Al said, Sayumi is just playing a character, everyone knows that isn't the real person and THAT is why she gets SOOOO much TV work for such a long time.



Bronn knows what he's talking about!

[Melon]

You're right I'm just an ugly girl and I'm sooooooooo jealous of horse face and her utter perfect "NADESHIKO" I feel the need to hate on her constantly for existing despite having forgotten about her since her flat ass left mm until this incident.



You see, it has been my experience that those with shapely bottoms like Sayumi are the true good people because they have a nice bottom and don't feel the need to overcompensate for their flatness like people with flat asses like Koharu.

[yuzuriha]

Hey petit...I have a flat ass :(

[Melon]

I knew my sarcasm wasn't going to go through on that one. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... pyeyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' />



lbr eri is the only one close to having a shapely bottom ;D

[yuzuriha]

LOL I wasn't taking you seriously.

[AEUGNewtype]

[quote name='Matt' timestamp='1360812821' post='144288']

I have come late to this thread. I just wanted to find out what all the fuss was about Koharu-chan's radio appearance.



I had no idea there were so many Koharu haters.



I think it was great that Koharu-chan spoke her mind. I think the Japanese get too caught up in their version of Confucian politeness that it becomes oppressive especially to young ladies.



I have always found Michishige Sayumi to be rather obnoxious. On YouTube I saw her appearance on a show called "Music Fighter" where she was very rude to the female host, implying that the host was old. Sayumi also kept going on about how cute she was, and how she was hired for her cuteness. It made it seem like she was quite full of herself.



I think Koharu was set-up by Sayumi and this Samna guy. In the dialog, Koharu says she was glad to have the opportunity to appear on the show thanks the cancellation of the other guest. That she hasn't been on the show for a long time. And Sayumi says something like "You know why that is?" I think here she is implying that Koharu is no longer as popular as she once was because she left Morning Musume to become a model. I think Koharu saying all that negative stuff about her experience in the group was to drown out the possibility of Sayumi or that Samna a-hole from saying that her career was on the skids. She wanted to make sure that everyone knows that this is where she wants to be.



While I always perceived Koharu-chan to be kind of the ditzy cheerleader type, I never found her to be as blunt and obnoxious as Sayumi. I think she was just making sure Sayumi didn't make any unnecessary obnoxious remarks about her career and her choice to be a model.



Another Morning Musume TV appearance that I managed to see on YouTube was where Koharu-chan and Sayumi showed up at a little girl's house as a surprise. Before the surprise, an interviewer asked the little girl who was favorite and least favorite Morning Musume member. The girl said Kusumi Koharu was her favorite and Michishige Sayumi was her least favorite. She said that Koharu was cute and she liked her singing, and she didn't like Michishige because she said mean things all the time.



As far as I am concerned Kusumi Koharu was the prettiest young lady to ever be involved in H!P and perhaps she is a bit of a show business phony, but they all are. I think a lot people just dislike her because she is beautiful and was chosen for Morning Musume based on her looks.

[/quote]

Very well-said. Kudos, sir. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[Pucchi-Mo]

[quote name='Matt' timestamp='1360812821' post='144288'] I think a lot people just dislike her because she is beautiful and was chosen for Morning Musume based on her looks.

[/quote]



Except, she was busted as fuck when she auditioned.



Most importantly, they had 2 whole auditions devoted to creating a 7th gen and she was the only result of that entire time spent.



Morning Musume is the only reason she looks better, it was the idol makeover. I will admit that she became more attractive over the years, but she didn't have model potential from the start. Not saying that it's common for a preteen to have those qualities, but she had a lot against her.



I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but I think we really would have laughed this off if it was someone cooler. From the decade of being at this BBS, traditionally, we like the edgy girls, but it was just a disappointment that it was Koharu of all girls. If Miki said this, we would just say "LOL what a bitch", and it would be over. Even Rika, if we want to use someone who is drastically more body & beauty than ...bocals? Heck, Rika did say something about fans once (mic recorded, not from an interview) but she didn't get burned at the stake for it.

[kira]

[quote name='Pucchi mo' timestamp='1360884480' post='144356']

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but I think we really would have laughed this off if it was someone cooler. From the decade of being at this BBS, traditionally, we like the edgy girls, but it was just a disappointment that it was Koharu of all girls. If Miki said this, we would just say "LOL what a bitch", and it would be over. Even Rika, if we want to use someone who is drastically more body & beauty than ...bocals? Heck, Rika did say something about fans once (mic recorded, not from an interview) but she didn't get burned at the stake for it.

[/quote]



I see it a little differently. I think the response is largely based on the fact that they don't like Koharu, so they're inclined to take this event and use it to further justify their dislike for her. Plus, I think Koharu has always been a polarizing member of Morning Musume. I read TnB's translation and it doesn't seem as bad as this thread made it out to be. And honestly, I don't have an opinion on Koharu as a whole. If I felt differently about her maybe I'd have a different response to what she said.



I think you're right, that if it were anyone else it would be a somewhat different response.

[AEUGNewtype]

Except, she was busted as fuck when she auditioned.

What universe do you live in? She was young as hell, but there was certainly nothing wrong with her looks. She was actually much cuter than a large majority of girls in their audition/training period. There really aren't many, if any 12 year old girls who look like adult models, so this is a completely unreasonable standard to hold, especially considering how most girls look at that time in their careers.

Most importantly, they had 2 whole auditions devoted to creating a 7th gen and she was the only result of that entire time spent.

And she made the group interesting again and secured them their most successful solo artist since Maki faded to obscurity/left, so saying he chose wrong is dead inaccurate.

Morning Musume is the only reason she looks better, it was the idol makeover. I will admit that she became more attractive over the years, but she didn't have model potential from the start. Not saying that it's common for a preteen to have those qualities

You just said it yourself, but watch any audition video of ANY member who was ever in an H!P group: they generally don't look so hot and look very different from how they did after joining. The idol makeover makes everyone look much better.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but I think we really would have laughed this off if it was someone cooler.

Someone "cooler?" What does this even mean? To me, this is basically just admitting that you and a lot of other people are haters and used this as an excuse to spray more hate about her, since there wasn't really much news about her lately. All this says is that "I'm unfairly biased towards certain members more than others and it affects how I treat them."

Heck, Rika did say something about fans once (mic recorded, not from an interview) but she didn't get burned at the stake for it.

She kinda did. Go look up some old threads (on other forums, we were always too cynical about most things) about her or that incident in general, people didn't take it too well. And this is just from the perspective of overseas fans, I couldn't imagine how most wota took that back in the day, which was who she was actually targeting with her comments.



But really.











Compared to this?





Really nothing wrong. Point is: a majority of girls look awkward when they're that young. End of story.