How Would You Help 12th Gen?

[TicTacAnyone]

 
We've all heard what most people think about 12th gen... Generally that they don't bring much to the table. Whether you believe this or not, it's a common thought in the foreign fandom. I'm not really sure what the Japanese fans think.
 
Anyway, here are some 12th gen performances for perspective:
Suki na Senpai (Final performance from their first tour [GRADATION, spring 2015])
Ai no Gundan (Small solo from their first fanclub event)
Hajimete no Rock Concert (From PRISM [Fall 2015]) (I'm pretty sure the solo talking parts rotated during the tour.)
 
Annnnd that's pretty much it for performances. 
 
 
 
My question is what you guys would do to "fix" or help 12th gen. And saying not having them join is not an answer!! They've already joined and you're in charge of making them a greater gen.
 
 
What do you do?

 

 

[Anderei]

Why did people have hopes for Ogata to be a weird girl?


Anyway, I don't know. I'd say make up personalities for them but then you venture into annoying overacting territory because I don't believe most current girls could be fake in a more natural way. And I don't see anyone in this gen ever working their way up to anything more than passable. Even with training. 9/10th gens aren't exactly stunning beacons of talent but 12th gen is really a new low considering there's four of them.


Tsunku has picked some pretty ehh choices in the past but I wouldn't mind if he decided to return to the gen choosing committee for 13th gen. Apparently he wasn't part of the process for 12th gen and I'm starting to think that the decision makers in the company counted his opinion on new girls more than I thought.

[MejraThea]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TicTacAnyone" data-cid="196605" data-time="1460598293">And saying not having them join is not an answer!!</blockquote>

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Anderei" data-cid="196609" data-time="1460600635">Apparently he wasn't part of the process for 12th gen and I'm starting to think that the decision makers in the company counted his opinion on new girls more than I thought.</blockquote>
 
All that needs to be said.

[JPope]

[quote="Anderei"]
Why did people have hopes for Ogata to be a weird girl?

 
[/quote]
 
Her pre-MM Twitter had a lot of goofy photos of her. She came across as a girl with a bit of no-fucks-given streak in her, tbh. There was a lot of talk within the fandom along these lines after she was chosen.
 
I don't know that there is much that can be done to help the 12th gen. Voice and dance lessons wouldn't hurt, but how much it would help depends on how much natural talent each girl has to mold, and while I don't watch as many lives as other fans, I've not seen anything to show that any of them have much talent at all. If they are going to try to adopt a stage persona, I hope they try to keep it somewhat close to their natural personality, because nothing is worse than obviously forced characters. Miki looks like the best bet to step up to me, based mostly on how comfortable she seems in the group. She's definitely the least overwhelmed of the four from what I've seen. Other than that, this just looks like a lost generation to me.
 
They really need to get it right with the 13th gen. However many girls are added, all of them need to bring legitimate talent to the group. Or not. Japanese idol fans just don't care a whole lot about musical talent any more, so they could probably get away with another four tin-eared hacks, each with two left feet, and so long as they are young and cute, the MoWota will stand and applaud.

[Anderei]

I mean, even the most boring girls take goofy photos. I think the fandom was looking for something that wasn't there.

[JPope]

[quote="Anderei"]
I mean, even the most boring girls take goofy photos. I think the fandom was looking for something that wasn't there.
[/quote]
 
I don't think it was a stretch to think she might be a little kooky based on those photos, tbh.

[TicTacAnyone]

All good suggestions so far.
 
For me, I think the best thing for them at this point is simply exposure and experience. When 9th gen joined, yes, they had lots of strict seniors leading them... But even with that, they were given opportunities to feel the pressure and step up to the plate (of course, Sayashi x10). They had gen solos at H!P concerts, they had solos in concerts, they had decent lines in singles filled with seniors. 10th gen had no Takahashi and their seniors began leaving as they joined, but they also were given chances to feel the heat. Also 10th gen relied heavy on their personalities... They had characters and they stuck to them for the first 2 years, then began to naturally deviate slightly. They took their job seriously, and have improved greatly--both in their own ways and as a generation as a whole. Oda had a rough time when she joined since she wasn't popular with the Japanese fans, but because she was a solo gen and a main vocalist she had tons and tons of chances to work herself up. She could already handle the stage, singing and dancing, so for her it was more working on her appeal.
 
Here is a video of 10th gen about a year after joining--same time in as 12th gen.
 
 
I think it's really detrimental to 12th gen that management hasn't given them proper stage time, solos and pressure to step up. This could be helped by an album song or putting one or multiple of them center for a song (though Miki has been center once.) I know they work hard, but I feel like they're being coddled too much.

[smtmissin]

12th gen already has enough exposure. With more exposure of such a terrible generation I wonder how fallen MM will become.
 
To think I used to place much hope on Maria >_<. Miki's voice isn't bad but she doesn't have the stage presence. None of the 12th gen have.
 
Do they even have personality? Miki only has English. She can't even make her English lesson interesting. Haruna doesn't seem as weird as fans expect. Akane doesn't have any striking personality. Maria only ever talks about baseball that no one cares. And being a crybaby maybe interesting at first, but people stop caring after a while.
 

[Madara]

I saw them live four times in Japan last month and I thought Maria was the only one of the four to acquit themselves well in live performance.

[Hotaru]

When the 9th and 10th gen joined, the group was in a lot more turbulence, so there was a lot more pressure to perform well...or at least be interesting.
 
Now that Riho and Kanon have/is graduating, I feel like they will have to step up to the plate more in order to not completely fall into the back lines permanently. Something that would help is definitely vocal lessons.
 
I also think that if they add a pretty talented girl in the 13th generation, that will get them (at least, Maria and Miki) to improve faster.

[DonJuan]

I agree, more exposure won't really do the job. Pressure, it is. Force them to break out of their shells. Put Miki in a group with Ogata more often because she seems way too timid on her own. Make them do a sketch during an MC.
 
Not sure if you can improve the quality of their performances that easily, though.
 

• Ogata is simply tone deaf. I never thought we'd get someone like that so soon after Sayumi left, but it seems like we did. She's got no idea of performing, but at least she seems to be somewhat good at posing. Not sure how long she's going to keep it though with how thin she's becoming.
• Miki is the best singer in the generation (which doesn't really mean anything). However, she's still awkward on stage, and even more awkward in MVs (damn, that shot of her in that Tokyo to Iu HaroSute edit. was so unflattering it was even worse than what Kanon got the past years).
• Maria, well, I feel like Maria fits best to be an idol. She's not good, but at least she looks like she's having fun. That's all for now.
• Akane needs a lot of training. I didn't say that for Ogata or Miki because they're already old and pretty much hopeless (sorry for that, but I can't see Ogata staying longer than, like, 4 years, especially not with her health condition, and we see how long 9ki and 10ki took to improve). Akane might work if she stays for a long time. They do need to teach her properly, though. Voice-wise she's a bit like Kanon or Gaki, with a voice too deep for her to control. Gaki took like what, 7 years to become somewhat pleasant? Kanon, despite not always being horrible, has also only become good since last year. What both Kanon and Akane are lacking though (and Gaki didn't) is stage presence, and that's something you'll need to work on constantly. That's why I said, put pressure on them. Force them to do something and not rely on their seniors.

[Mugi]

I don't really think there is anything wrong with this generation.  They either need more time to grow or a reason to get better faster.  Right now it just seems like time will be the test.  Do the Japanese fans not like them?  
 
I think their performances are fine.  I watched their Suki na Senpai and 10th gens performance and I had the same reaction.  I smiled and was happy.  As long as they are doing that for someone I think they are fine.  Just cause you guys don't like them or see whats special doesn't mean it isn't there.  But I think wanting them to improve is fine (which is what I think this thread is about) cause I want them to get better too.

[Elpis]

I think they need to make them stand out a bit more. I don't really watch performance footage much anymore, just MVs so I'm going off what I see in there. The 12th gen overall look similar to some of the current members and whenever they do get a solo shot, its hard to tell that it's really them. Much less if they do it well. 
 

• Akane for example looks kind of similar to Miki and Masaki. Both of them seem to overshadow her a lot. In the Mirai Shojo Audition footage, Akane was the girl doing the english speaking and while she doesn't have the fluency of Miki she's better than a majority of the group. Masaki is just better at singing than her in general. Not too sure on how to help her other than work on her personality and her singing. 
• Maria looks a lot like Mizuki to me at certain angles. Since they both have pink member colors, maybe pairing them up so they appear in shots together would be good. Kind of like how Sayu and Mizuki were and Sayu/Koha in the past. She needs more vocal training so she doesn't keep straining. 
• Miki has the most potential, she can speak english, sing sort of okay. Other than speaking english, I really don't know much about her. While she was center in Ima Sugu, she wasn't really that noticeable (neither was Masaki), she needs to work more on her stage presence and get better vocal lessons. 
• Ogata is pretty much a lost cause like what has been said. She does have a background in figure skating, and they should make use of it. Don't really know how. Since she supposedly has a weird personality, they should let her get loose more. Since singing isn't her strong suit, she could at least be able to do some variety. It'd be interesting if she dyed her hair blond or something.

 

[Farrah]

[quote="JPope"]
They really need to get it right with the 13th gen. However many girls are added, all of them need to bring legitimate talent to the group. Or not. Japanese idol fans just don't care a whole lot about musical talent any more, so they could probably get away with another four tin-eared hacks, each with two left feet, and so long as they are young and cute, the MoWota will stand and applaud.
 
[/quote]
 
This is so true and honestly, it has kind of ruined idol fandom for me.  I feel like back when the group still had some mainstream appeal, there was some pressure to have at least some kind of talent or outstanding charisma in the group.  Now, the less talent and the less charisma the better - the majority of the fandom being total wota now, they basically function as surrogate girlfriends so the less individuality or talent the better because it makes it easier for the wota to project their ideal onto the girl. 
 
With a generation where no one has any talent, it feels like they should at least be outstandingly charismatic or interesting or charming, but these girls really may as well not be there.  I frequently forget they've even been added - they all completely fade into the background for me.

[TicTacAnyone]

[quote="DonJuan"]
 
I agree, more exposure won't really do the job. Pressure, it is. Force them to break out of their shells. Put Miki in a group with Ogata more often because she seems way too timid on her own. Make them do a sketch during an MC.
 
Not sure if you can improve the quality of their performances that easily, though.
 

• Ogata is simply tone deaf. I never thought we'd get someone like that so soon after Sayumi left, but it seems like we did. She's got no idea of performing, but at least she seems to be somewhat good at posing. Not sure how long she's going to keep it though with how thin she's becoming.
• Miki is the best singer in the generation (which doesn't really mean anything). However, she's still awkward on stage, and even more awkward in MVs (damn, that shot of her in that Tokyo to Iu HaroSute edit. was so unflattering it was even worse than what Kanon got the past years).
• Maria, well, I feel like Maria fits best to be an idol. She's not good, but at least she looks like she's having fun. That's all for now.
• Akane needs a lot of training. I didn't say that for Ogata or Miki because they're already old and pretty much hopeless (sorry for that, but I can't see Ogata staying longer than, like, 4 years, especially not with her health condition, and we see how long 9ki and 10ki took to improve). Akane might work if she stays for a long time. They do need to teach her properly, though. Voice-wise she's a bit like Kanon or Gaki, with a voice too deep for her to control. Gaki took like what, 7 years to become somewhat pleasant? Kanon, despite not always being horrible, has also only become good since last year. What both Kanon and Akane are lacking though (and Gaki didn't) is stage presence, and that's something you'll need to work on constantly. That's why I said, put pressure on them. Force them to do something and not rely on their seniors.

 
[/quote]
 
But isn't that exposure, though? I guess I should've clarified, that's what I had meant. They need to be exposed to the pressure and hardships of being in Morning Musume.... Dancing and singing lessons will help them all, of course, but I think the root of the problem lays deeper than just getting more lessons. 12th gen needs situations where they can be relied on or have to really give it their all under pressure. Past members who weren't good at singing or dancing forced themselves to do their best (whether by getting better at these things, using their personality, etc.) to contribute to the group.
 
I guess that's more of what I want from 12th gen in general--contribution.

[DonJuan]

[quote="TicTacAnyone"]
But isn't that exposure, though? I guess I should've clarified, that's what I had meant.
[/quote]
 
Ah, then I misunderstood. I agree with you.

[JPope]

[quote="Farrah"]
With a generation where no one has any talent, it feels like they should at least be outstandingly charismatic or interesting or charming, but these girls really may as well not be there.  I frequently forget they've even been added - they all completely fade into the background for me.
 
[/quote]
 
Ha ha! I totally forget they are in the group sometimes, too. With every previous generation that I watched join MM, I would have identified a favorite or two by now, but the 12th gen is just sort of a fog that hangs around the group. I guess Miki would be the one I'd call my favorite of the four but if she graduated tomorrow, I'd hardly notice or care.

[Purin-chama]

They also stopped doing b-sides, which showcased the other members more. Because of that, they barely have any face time in singles or concert performances. I think the fact that they have next to no experience because of the lack of material they are given has helped make them appear invisible. They have no purpose right now. 
 
I also figured Maria and Akane had more footage somewhere but I couldn't find more.... I know Akane had that duet with Meimi last year and Maria had a solo. There also used to be audio from the Kenshuusei solo recitals.

[Anderei]

Akane's duet with Meimi.
 
If anyone wants to watch it. All it really does is highlight just how bad she is.

[DonJuan]

[quote="Myst"]
I also figured Maria and Akane had more footage somewhere but I couldn't find more.... I know Akane had that duet with Meimi last year and Maria had a solo. There also used to be audio from the Kenshuusei solo recitals.
[/quote]
 
HagaTamu's Suki Sugite Baka Mitai
 
Maria's Daite Yo Please go on
 
Based on these I don't think they're hopeless. Akane really does sound rough on some parts but she's not tone deaf. Maria was nervous but you could see that she tried. Her singing was okay in my opinion, but she strains really easily.

[smtmissin]

For recent footage:
Mr Moonlight:
https://www.facebook.com/helloprojectfanpage/videos/10153605688835958/
And birthday event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggx_u-lMlwE
(If you thinking it's unfair comparing her to Ayumi, just compare her now to Ayumi when Ayumi first joined, Maria doesn't have half the stage presence Ayumi did.)
Maria doesn't improve at all. She's still kenshuusei's mid-level. I used to fool myself thinking she'll improve after watching Daite, but I've given up hope.
 
Actually I still think Akane still has rooms for improvements. Other girls were given enough opportunities but failed to shine, but Akane still hasn't proven herself yet. At least not from an old footage.

[TicTacAnyone]

[quote="smtmissin"]
And birthday event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggx_u-lMlwE
(If you thinking it's unfair comparing her to Ayumi, just compare her now to Ayumi when Ayumi first joined, Maria doesn't have half the stage presence Ayumi did.)
Maria doesn't improve at all. She's still kenshuusei's mid-level. I used to fool myself thinking she'll improve after watching Daite, but I've given up hope.
[/quote]
 
It's funny you say that, because I think Maria did great. In those short clips her performances were better than Ayumin's, lol (personal opinon.) Like I know Ayumi has improved her singing somewhat, but Maria's performances were more entertaining to me.
 
Also Ayumi was an idol at a local level before moving up to MM, and had dance experience prior. You'd be better off comparing Maria to Kudo or Masaki.

[smtmissin]

I wasn't a Masaki fan when she first joined (was an Ayumi fan) and I have to say I was impressed by her presence in 123 and Wakuteka's MV. She didn't have much screen time but I really liked her facial expressions. I was Maria's fan when she joined and all she shows in MVs is her pretty face LOL. As for stage presence, I only ever paid attention to Riho when 9th gen joined and Ayumi when 10th gen joined so I couldn't make any comparisons, but I can say for sure that both 9th and 10th gen (except for Haruna and Erina) always give me a sense of their presence, as opposed to 12th gen, I barely notice them exist at all.
 
As for that birthday event, I also find it funny you say that ^. But like you said, personal opinion.

[showraniy]

Gravure.
 
Frankly, I don't notice these girls at all. Miki's English is cool, and Maria has a pretty face, but they don't stand out at all other than that to me. No talent, no stage presence = gravure. For some idol companies, that's basically just releasing a photobook anyway.

[mrsross]

I'm gonna beat a dead horse, but give H!P a Hello Morning like show to show off their personality and help them break out of their shells. 

[JPope]

[quote="Myst"]
They also stopped doing b-sides, which showcased the other members more. Because of that, they barely have any face time in singles or concert performances. I think the fact that they have next to no experience because of the lack of material they are given has helped make them appear invisible. They have no purpose right now. 
 
[/quote]
 
This is a great point, and I'll add to that the comparative lack of shuffle and one-off groups (and, yes, the weekly variety show) from back-in-the-day that presented n00bs with greater responsibility and opportunity. 

[Anderei]

I can see why they don't do another Hello Morning. They'd have to pay money for scriptwriters, sets, ect. and even top idol group shows don't bring in the ratings. It'd be a lot of work for a show with a small audience that would probably air after midnight.

[JPope]

Oh, HM could never exist today, as there's simply no audience for it. We're just just using it as an example of how certain avenues for growth no longer exist for new members compared to the past.

[aine]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TicTacAnyone" data-cid="196605" data-time="1460598293">
My question is what you guys would do to "fix" or help 12th gen.
</blockquote>

Who?


UF (or whatever they were called at the time) have been bad at fostering and nurturing personalities in their members for years. I'll admit it seems to have started with my beloved 6th Gen, who really were 3 deer-in-headlights little girls who'd rather have ran back home crying than look Natsu-sensei in the eye. It's only because they got to stay in the group for like half a century that they've grown into the memorable ladies that we know.
 
Since then, I feel both the new member choices and their personality development have been only getting worse. The only truly outstanding member since then who had a good dose of spunk and spark and drive for greatness was Riho and it feels like she's been in and out of the group in a week maybe.
 
That's not to say a few other members weren't/aren't nice and enjoyable, but I can't help but feel that it's only because we lower the bar and out expectations so damn much.
 
12th Gen to me is the culmination and crowning moment of this trend of moeblob-ness and frankly I find myself having the hardest time giving a fuck. Combined with the fact that they totally dropped the ball music-wise and their sound formula has ran dry, I don't even know their names or recognize their faces. Maybe except for the girl who speaks English, but after all that her skill was used for was saying one of the two stock sentences punctuated by resounding "EEEEEEEEEEHHHH" from the audience I just gave up having any hope.
 
I think with the currently quickly growing market and interest in "alternative" idols UF really needs to rethink their game or go the way of the dodo. I've been keeping an eye on the alternative scene for a while and Babymetal or even Ladybaby (RIP) are really just the tip of an iceberg. With the former paving the way it seems that more and more fans in the West are looking for something fresh, edgy, unconventional and fun, rather than another assorted litter of cookie-cutter moeblobs.
 
I guess I failed to actually answer the OP question, but maybe someone smarter than me will be able to distill the issue from my rant and perhaps come up with a remedy.

[showraniy]

Well, I think the main issue with the moeblob (great word btw), girl-next-door members is that that's exactly what Japan wants, and Japanese fans are where the money's at. H!P needs those fans even though they really want to branch out into the Western market, so they're stuck trying to toe the line.


That really isn't an excuse though, precisely because they've got an unlimited number of girls they could put in the group, so it really wouldn't be that difficult to add members who appeal to the Western market. As much as I don't understand it, Kanon appealed to Western fans like crazy, so they just need to find more like that to supplement the Japanese fans' preferences.