Morning Musume is doomed.

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311959623' post='104890']

Also, I am aware of all of those itty-bitty unheard of idol groups who scrape by, doing performances in stores and such, but I fail to see how their lack of success is evidence that the H!P powers that be should continue not giving a shit.

[/quote]



I'm a little torn about replying to anything at all in this thread, since it's so full of the same old same old. But here I go anyway. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/sigh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':sigh:' />



I believe Mage was illustrating the overall state of affairs of the market for female idols and how MM/H!P fits in to give a bit of perspective to the argument. AKB48's current success is a rare occurance among female idols. Maybe Perfume can be included as well, but I'm not sure if they're really classified as idols. Female idols have always had wota as their main fanbase - I believe it was Ukyo that pointed out once that even old Matsuda Seiko concerts you can hear tons of wota chanting. Having teens and girls as part of the fanbase is kind of a bonus, and not the main group marketed to.



Some more perspective: This is the hierarchy of female idol groups in Japan right now.



AKB -> MM/H!P -> MomoClo & Similar -> Girls that dance in stores



The fact that the H!P powers that be are near the top of their genre but don't market, write songs, and make PVs the way you (and others in the thread) want them to does not mean they don't give a shit. They just have an old fashioned/safe approach that involves keeping steady money coming in rather than taking huge risks that may not pay off.

[Farrah]

I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[Pucchi-Mo]

After September, they'll really never be the same.

So in that sense, Takahashi + backup MM is doomed.

MM's doom comes in chapters, but it'll be reborn.

I wonder how Risa will handle MM without Ai.

[Farrah]

[quote name='Pucchi mo' timestamp='1311971947' post='104906']

After September, they'll really never be the same.

So in that sense, Takahashi + backup MM is doomed.

MM's doom comes in chapters, but it'll be reborn.

I wonder how Risa will handle MM without Ai.

[/quote]



This is true. The entire structure of Morning Musume since~ 2006? Has been Takahashi + Reina (and Miki, when she was still around) ft. Everyone else. I guess now it will be Reina + Risa ft. Everyone else. Which basically means there is not even one singing voice I don't hate in the group anymore

[Anderei]

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']

I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]



Well, the problem with promotions is that if people don't want them on their show, they can't go. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hahaha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' /> Maybe they should put a little more effort into promotion events, rather than just the one or two standard ones that come with every single.

[al kusanagi]

UFA has been half-assing it for well over 5 years and there's really no need for them to try harder. No matter what they do, amazing or shitty, MM has been selling to the same core fans. And while they'll never hit number 1 again, those fans are still selling out concerts, buying the merchandise, and spending fuck-tons on fanclub trips and whatnot.



Until the non-CD related income disappears, they don't have to change anything, no matter how frustrating it may be.

[quote name='Anderei' timestamp='1311972451' post='104908']

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']

I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]



Well, the problem with promotions is that if people don't want them on their show, they can't go. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hahaha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' /> Maybe they should put a little more effort into promotion events, rather than just the one or two standard ones that come with every single.

[/quote]



They also have to PAY to get on the shows and promote themselves. If the money for the appearance costs more than the projected sales it would bring in, why bother?

[Farrah]

[quote name='Anderei' timestamp='1311972451' post='104908']

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']

I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]



Well, the problem with promotions is that if people don't want them on their show, they can't go. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hahaha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' /> Maybe they should put a little more effort into promotion events, rather than just the one or two standard ones that come with every single.

[/quote]



I just feel like they could push harder. I know they can't just come on any show they want to LOL but I'm sure there are other ways to get their name out there. For example, getting Only You played on that big screen in Tokyo! It didn't really amount to much, but things like that are at least worth trying, in my opinion. I wish they would do more things like that. I'd love to see them get an ad compaign with someone - I know they'll never get a tie in with someone like Glico again, but idk. Something.



[quote name='Ap2000' timestamp='1311972826' post='104912']

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']

I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]



I often see people writing "just write soe good songs !", but it's really not that easy to write songs that will become popular...

[/quote]



This is true, and I can't really hold it against them although I can't help but shake my head at anyone who thought Only You would be a good single. Actually, I think Momusu have come out with PLENTY of AMAZING B-sides and album tracks over the past few years. I wish those were the songs being promoted, tbh.

[Ap2000]

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']



I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]



I often see people writing "just write some good songs !", but it's really not that easy to write songs that will become popular...

[Anderei]

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311972723' post='104910']

[quote name='Anderei' timestamp='1311972451' post='104908']

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']

I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]



Well, the problem with promotions is that if people don't want them on their show, they can't go. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hahaha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' /> Maybe they should put a little more effort into promotion events, rather than just the one or two standard ones that come with every single.

[/quote]



I just feel like they could push harder. I know they can't just come on any show they want to LOL but I'm sure there are other ways to get their name out there. For example, getting Only You played on that big screen in Tokyo! It didn't really amount to much, but things like that are at least worth trying, in my opinion. I wish they would do more things like that.

[/quote]



Yeah, the big screen thing was cool. I felt like there were a lot more tv appearances for Only You, though. Not performances or entire group performances, but Sayumi, Reina, and Aika (maybe because she's 18 now and can do stuff?) all went on a pretty good number of shows together (I think Ai went to a few and Erina and Riho showed up at one). They seem to have a hard time getting entire group appearances though.



That's a problem with all the new generations and fewer older members. They're limited to when they can be on TV.

[Farrah]

[quote name='Anderei' timestamp='1311972878' post='104913']

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311972723' post='104910']

[quote name='Anderei' timestamp='1311972451' post='104908']

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']

I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]



Well, the problem with promotions is that if people don't want them on their show, they can't go. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... hahaha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hahaha:' /> Maybe they should put a little more effort into promotion events, rather than just the one or two standard ones that come with every single.

[/quote]



I just feel like they could push harder. I know they can't just come on any show they want to LOL but I'm sure there are other ways to get their name out there. For example, getting Only You played on that big screen in Tokyo! It didn't really amount to much, but things like that are at least worth trying, in my opinion. I wish they would do more things like that.

[/quote]



Yeah, the big screen thing was cool. I felt like there were a lot more tv appearances for Only You, though. Not performances or entire group performances, but Sayumi, Reina, and Aika (maybe because she's 18 now and can do stuff?) all went on a pretty good number of shows together (I think Ai went to a few and Erina and Riho showed up at one). They seem to have a hard time getting entire group appearances though.



That's a problem with all the new generations and fewer older members. They're limited to when they can be on TV.

[/quote]



Hey, every little bit helps, haha. I have a feeling Sayu is probably the most recognizable face in Momusu right now. Her constant TV appearances are surely beneficial. . . although everyone does seem to love to hate her LOL



Oh, how I would love for Hello!Morning to come back D:

[Anderei]

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311973333' post='104916']





Hey, every little bit helps, haha. I have a feeling Sayu is probably the most recognizable face in Momusu right now. Her constant TV appearances are surely beneficial. . . although everyone does seem to love to hate her LOL



Oh, how I would love for Hello!Morning to come back D:

[/quote]



She was only number 9 most hated by women last year, though, and as far as I'm concerned she can do so much better than that.







I just saw this over at H!O



"As the media-shy talent agency president Naoki Yamazaki said in a rare October 2001 interview with print magazine Cyzo, "I entrust all the music stuff with Tsunku. But which members graduate and who enters the group is all decided by me. The real producer isn't Tsunku, but me."



Is he still the president? Since this is ten years old.

[momoirosaya]

[quote name='Ap2000' timestamp='1311972826' post='104912']

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']



I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]



I often see people writing "just write some good songs !", but it's really not that easy to write songs that will become popular...

[/quote]

Agree.

[tsukinobyouin]

[quote name='Al Kusanagi' timestamp='1311972555' post='104909']

UFA has been half-assing it for well over 5 years and there's really no need for them to try harder. No matter what they do, amazing or shitty, MM has been selling to the same core fans. And while they'll never hit number 1 again, those fans are still selling out concerts, buying the merchandise, and spending fuck-tons on fanclub trips and whatnot.



Until the non-CD related income disappears, they don't have to change anything, no matter how frustrating it may be.



They also have to PAY to get on the shows and promote themselves. If the money for the appearance costs more than the projected sales it would bring in, why bother?

[/quote]



This is what I meant about risk. Everything costs money. It is a risk to spend a lot of money on a music video that might not sell well, it's a risk to spend money on new songwriters when you can just work Tsunku into the ground, it's a risk to spend a bunch of money on promotions that may not get you anywhere. "Promotion" is not some free magic thing that instantly makes everyone a superstar. Yes, it would be nice if UFA at least TRIED, but as things are now they don't have motivation to do so.





[quote name='Ap2000' timestamp='1311972826' post='104912']

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']

I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]



I often see people writing "just write soe good songs !", but it's really not that easy to write songs that will become popular...

[/quote]



This. Also "good songs" is subjective. I believe it was rob who once wisely said that if all music that sold well was good, Justin Bieber would have one of the best discographies of all time.





Also: "LOL" is not a period.

[EmEl]

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']

I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]

It's risky in a business sense to try to change things when things are working. The ones who have to take risks are the ones struggling to survive. Good songs just won't magically make them popular. So often I hear things like "if only MM would ______ they'd be popular." But that's not how it would work. Most of the time it's just fans wishing something and believing it would make them popular again. I personally think that even had they promoted the "better" b-sides and album tracks, sales would be the same. I don't believe they can just will themselves to 80,000.



I want to point out that of course I don't think there's anything wrong with wishing Morning Musume were number one again or wishing they had PVs worth watching. Sure, we all wish those things as fans of the group (or at least I assume we're all fans for hanging out here). Yes, taking risks would be nice and would be helpful in trying to propel them. But I think too often the topic of "Doomed MM" gets conflated with "MM isn't number one anymore". I just don't think the issue should be muddled. Yes, Morning Musume has many problems in the way of them ever becoming number one again, but no they are not doomed because of it. They are far from doomed. That's all I was trying to say.

[roddyreta]

I think you also have to deal with the reality that a lot of H!P core fans (the ones who pay the $$) are quite conservative.



I mean, look at how people freaked out over Buono's new album track.



People often say they want something new, but do they really?

[momoirosaya]

[quote name='Riho World' timestamp='1312051221' post='104972']

I think you also have to deal with the reality that a lot of H!P core fans (the ones who pay the $$) are quite conservative.



I mean, look at how people freaked out over Buono's new album track.



People often say they want something new, but do they really?

[/quote]

I know right? People say "I want some different!" then something different comes out and they're like "What is this? It's awful! Give us back the old (insert group name here)!"

[al kusanagi]

No, quite the opposite. They NEED to leave stuff the way it is and not keep fucking it up. UFA has most certainly not followed the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," mentality. Perfect modern example: The S/mileage new member audition. The ultimate example: The Great Purge of '02 (graduating Maki, changing the sub-group member, ect. all announced on the same day), which pretty much was the first great misstep in HP history.

[JPope]

[quote name='Ap2000' timestamp='1311972826' post='104912']

[quote name='Farrah' timestamp='1311971899' post='104905']



I don't get what's so risky about trying to write a good song, giving them a video that looks professional rather than amateur, and not half assing promotions LOL but okay. Apparently, I hold a very unpopular opinion.

[/quote]



I often see people writing "just write some good songs !", but it's really not that easy to write songs that will become popular...

[/quote]



No, it's not easy, yet other groups get good songs all the time. Tsunku just isn't the same song writer that he was seven or eight years ago. He's gotten older, and probably isn't as hungry anymore, so it's not surprising that MM's music has become stale and predictable.



MM is "doomed" in the sense that they will likely never be a top selling brand ever again. The pop music business is fickle and craves new faces and new names, so they have that and Tsunku's decline to deal with.

[SilentCalv]

Personally, I think the latest generation of Morning Musume will suffer a lot because of Ai's departure. What's sad about it is that, they no longer have anymore interesting characters on the show. The 9th generation are still at their infancy and now with the 10th audition going on, who knows?



I mean it is cool that Tsunku is trying the old fomula by having another junior around but that will take a whole lot more time to get used to. And they need better shows too. Hello!Morning was great. Really great. The only interesting one so far is seeing Gaki stepping up as the leader and that's all. What happen if they can't find interesting characters like Yossy, Goto, Eri, Ai and Yaguchi? I really do hope that they can find a way to kick things up. Right now, Dream Morning Musume is leading if you ask me.

[neshcom]

[quote name='SilentCalv' timestamp='1314158144' post='106654']

Personally, I think the latest generation of Morning Musume will suffer a lot because of Ai's departure. What's sad about it is that, they no longer have anymore interesting characters on the show. The 9th generation are still at their infancy and now with the 10th audition going on, who knows?



I mean it is cool that Tsunku is trying the old fomula by having another junior around but that will take a whole lot more time to get used to. And they need better shows too. Hello!Morning was great. Really great. The only interesting one so far is seeing Gaki stepping up as the leader and that's all. What happen if they can't find interesting characters like Yossy, Goto, Eri, Ai and Yaguchi? I really do hope that they can find a way to kick things up. Right now, Dream Morning Musume is leading if you ask me.

[/quote]



Okay, I'm gonna be that bitch, especially since this thread isn't THAT old, but please be sure not to just try to flop yourself onto very old threads. The best way to assimilate is to naturally flow into current topics and not just try to prove your worth on conversations that are done. This and the Members Section thread are three weeks old, which isn't too old, but please stay off of older threads unless there is new information or a thrilling new opinion. This isn't a chiding, just a forewarning.



/bitchmode

[SilentCalv]

[quote name='neshcom' timestamp='1314159498' post='106658']

[quote name='SilentCalv' timestamp='1314158144' post='106654']

Personally, I think the latest generation of Morning Musume will suffer a lot because of Ai's departure. What's sad about it is that, they no longer have anymore interesting characters on the show. The 9th generation are still at their infancy and now with the 10th audition going on, who knows?



I mean it is cool that Tsunku is trying the old fomula by having another junior around but that will take a whole lot more time to get used to. And they need better shows too. Hello!Morning was great. Really great. The only interesting one so far is seeing Gaki stepping up as the leader and that's all. What happen if they can't find interesting characters like Yossy, Goto, Eri, Ai and Yaguchi? I really do hope that they can find a way to kick things up. Right now, Dream Morning Musume is leading if you ask me.

[/quote]



Okay, I'm gonna be that bitch, especially since this thread isn't THAT old, but please be sure not to just try to flop yourself onto very old threads. The best way to assimilate is to naturally flow into current topics and not just try to prove your worth on conversations that are done. This and the Members Section thread are three weeks old, which isn't too old, but please stay off of older threads unless there is new information or a thrilling new opinion. This isn't a chiding, just a forewarning.



/bitchmode

[/quote]



Ouch, noted. Not proving my worth or anything as I got interested in this topic... But point taken. As the newbie, I guess I gotta go with the flow.

[neshcom]

[quote name='SilentCalv' timestamp='1314160917' post='106662']

[quote name='neshcom' timestamp='1314159498' post='106658']

[quote name='SilentCalv' timestamp='1314158144' post='106654']

Personally, I think the latest generation of Morning Musume will suffer a lot because of Ai's departure. What's sad about it is that, they no longer have anymore interesting characters on the show. The 9th generation are still at their infancy and now with the 10th audition going on, who knows?



I mean it is cool that Tsunku is trying the old fomula by having another junior around but that will take a whole lot more time to get used to. And they need better shows too. Hello!Morning was great. Really great. The only interesting one so far is seeing Gaki stepping up as the leader and that's all. What happen if they can't find interesting characters like Yossy, Goto, Eri, Ai and Yaguchi? I really do hope that they can find a way to kick things up. Right now, Dream Morning Musume is leading if you ask me.

[/quote]



Okay, I'm gonna be that bitch, especially since this thread isn't THAT old, but please be sure not to just try to flop yourself onto very old threads. The best way to assimilate is to naturally flow into current topics and not just try to prove your worth on conversations that are done. This and the Members Section thread are three weeks old, which isn't too old, but please stay off of older threads unless there is new information or a thrilling new opinion. This isn't a chiding, just a forewarning.



/bitchmode

[/quote]



Ouch, noted. Not proving my worth or anything as I got interested in this topic... But point taken. As the newbie, I guess I gotta go with the flow.

[/quote]



It's seriously not a big deal. We just get a lot of new members who go in and bump a dozen really old threads without adding anything and then they sometimes end up banned, I'm sure you'll be fine around here. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[SilentCalv]

[quote name='neshcom' timestamp='1314161463' post='106663']

[quote name='SilentCalv' timestamp='1314160917' post='106662']

[quote name='neshcom' timestamp='1314159498' post='106658']

[quote name='SilentCalv' timestamp='1314158144' post='106654']

Personally, I think the latest generation of Morning Musume will suffer a lot because of Ai's departure. What's sad about it is that, they no longer have anymore interesting characters on the show. The 9th generation are still at their infancy and now with the 10th audition going on, who knows?



I mean it is cool that Tsunku is trying the old fomula by having another junior around but that will take a whole lot more time to get used to. And they need better shows too. Hello!Morning was great. Really great. The only interesting one so far is seeing Gaki stepping up as the leader and that's all. What happen if they can't find interesting characters like Yossy, Goto, Eri, Ai and Yaguchi? I really do hope that they can find a way to kick things up. Right now, Dream Morning Musume is leading if you ask me.

[/quote]



Okay, I'm gonna be that bitch, especially since this thread isn't THAT old, but please be sure not to just try to flop yourself onto very old threads. The best way to assimilate is to naturally flow into current topics and not just try to prove your worth on conversations that are done. This and the Members Section thread are three weeks old, which isn't too old, but please stay off of older threads unless there is new information or a thrilling new opinion. This isn't a chiding, just a forewarning.



/bitchmode

[/quote]



Ouch, noted. Not proving my worth or anything as I got interested in this topic... But point taken. As the newbie, I guess I gotta go with the flow.

[/quote]



It's seriously not a big deal. We just get a lot of new members who go in and bump a dozen really old threads without adding anything and then they sometimes end up banned, I'm sure you'll be fine around here. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... umbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[/quote]



Thanks. Am not really a forum guy so I don't know all of this things. But because of MM, I really do want to get involved and get more info. Learning Jap and still suck at it. OK, I'll stop now. Thanks for the heads up. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... /angel.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[aine]

I'm gonna cut this one some slack because it uses well-formed sentences and punctuates and capitalizes properly. Sad times when things like this warrant a special mention. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... >/hmph.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hmph:' />



But yeah, no more necrobumping please.

[Raven]

Actually to me, i find the 8th generation onward till present is getting worse, the popularity is also dropping. <img src='http://mm-bbs.org/public/style_emoticon ... pyeyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':puppyeyes:' /> I really missed 1-7th generation

[EmEl]

You used ill-formed sentences, punctuated and capitalized improperly, and necrobumped.



It's like you read aine's last post in this thread and purposefully wrote how and what you did.



Is he still on vacation? That's too bad.

[JPope]

Honestly, it's not the worst time to bump this particular thread, however the execution does leave a bit to be desired.

[BonkyuAsh]

Well since this thread is bumped. I feel wary with 10th gen getting added. I became a fan in 08 before Ails got added and now that the lineup I've grown accustomed to is basically gone, I feel myself unsure of how much longer I'll be into MM 9th gen are good and all and I'm sure 10 th has the potential to be, but they're all too young and don't really appeal to me. The only girls who are really interesting to me are Zukki, Eripon, and Sayumi. Aika is my favorite bacause she was the first to join when I became a fan and I was drawn to her and got to see her grow, but honestly, I don't see her getting interesting at all, she's basically a filler member. With Ai gone, a lot is going to change, but I'm unsure whether it will be good it not considering the current members abilities. Gaki and Reina are the best vocalists they have right now. Riho still really nerds to find get voice. Aika, Zukki, and Mizuki, are meh. Sayu and Eripon are not so good. And from what I saw from the 10th gen auditions they aren't that much to be excited for vocally right now. All in all, I'm kinda on the fence because the decisions that have been made regarding morning musume these past couple of years has put the group in a very crappy position. Relying too much on Ai and Reina vocally, pushing back 8th gen so their growth was stunted, holding off grads for too long, then suddenly graduating 3 girls at once, all of this and other minor stuff has really affected the group negatively imo. It has me wondering about my fandom and maybe even others.

[rob]

I think everyone needs to change their POV.



Just wake up tomorrow and forget everything you know about MM, it's a new start and a fresh new beginning.



Yearning for times gone by can be tempting at times but if you live in the past you sometimes fail to appreciate the present.



A lot of people moaned and bitched about the 9th gen, but look at them now, Riho is going to be center girl, Eripon and Zukki are making us all laugh. It's only Mizuki who really hasn't come out of her shell yet.



We need to be patient and give the 10th gen a chance, I know I for one was angry about the lack of Karin but shit happens and we move on.



As of right now, MM starts today and it's the start of new day.



I can't wait!

[Cyrene]

LOL Riho is going to be center girl? Great, just what we need, loli. As if being an MM fan wasn't hard enough already...



I don't think MM can ever return to the way it used to be. Now that Ai is gone from the group the only chance of good vocals comes from Risa, and we all know she'll get the shaft. The only hope for MM really is to hope they can hold on for a few years so that they're older. I can't fangirl 12 year olds anymore, it's weird. The ages of the girls used to not bother me when I was 15, but now that I'm 25 it seems just a bit off that I have to cheer for kids in a group where most of them used to be older than me. (Just my own opinion, of course.)